About this Episode
Episode 153: Published on Mar 20, 2024
We discuss the changing sports media landscape and the rich legacy of Northwestern graduates in sports media.
’Cats in Sports Media, with Lisa Byington ’98, ’99 MS and Cassidy Hubbarth ’07
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[MUSIC PLAYING] MAX: Welcome back to Northwestern Intersections, a Northwestern Alumni Association podcast. Join us for this special episode for a conversation between Lisa Byington and Cassidy Hubbarth. Byington is a play by play commentator who has covered major sporting events from the Women's World Cup and Olympic games to NCAA men's March Madness and play by play duties for the Milwaukee Bucks.
Hubbarth is an Emmy award winning Evanston native working as an anchor for ESPN's SportsCenter, NBA Tonight, and First Take. We hope you enjoy this special conversation just in time for March Madness. Go cats.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: So I grew up in Evanston. The thing about Evanston is that Northwestern is there, and Evanston also has like, its own pride separate from Northwestern. I grew up having friends whose parents worked at Northwestern, but like never think about going to Northwestern because it was there until I started to really explore wanting to be in this business, probably around middle school and then into high school.
But I didn't apply to Northwestern when I was applying to schools, because frankly, I couldn't afford it and my parents couldn't afford it. So I actually went to University of Illinois my freshman year, and I went there, and I majored in communications, and worked at a radio station, and there wasn't really a broadcast journalism program.
And then also my father actually was diagnosed with throat cancer, and he's cancer free now. But it was very scary at the time. So I was coming home a lot every weekend, every other weekend just wanting to see him and keep up with what was going on with him.
And it just kind of got to a point in the year at Illinois, where I was like, I want to be back in Evanston, and I just don't feel like I'm getting what I need out of U-of-I. I want to be a broadcast journalist, so I applied to transfer to Northwestern.
And I did. I put all my effort into my application, but I didn't think I was going to get in. I asked my parents like, hey, I'm going to try to transfer. Is this OK? And my parents were like, sure, go ahead. I mean, I think they believed in me, but I don't know if they really, like thought it was all going to come together.
And I got a letter back saying that you got into Northwestern. And then we were all like, now what? Now what do we do? How do I-- how do we make this dream a reality?
My parents-- somehow my parents figured out with student loans. And I lived at home for a year or two, and I worked full-time. But I was able to go to Northwestern, and I didn't actually start at Medill.
I transferred again once I got into Northwestern. So I kind of took the back door not just into Northwestern, but into Medill. From there, I did summer school and everything else that I could to try to get myself up to speed.
And the rest is history. I worked full time at the Kellogg School of-- the business school at Northwestern as a work study, and was able to work a couple jobs. And I think my parents are still paying those student loans, and there's a lifetime loan.
I've taken those on, but we pulled off a miraculous feat to get me to Northwestern. But I think my mom knew that it was going to open up so many doors for me, and it truly it truly did. So that's my Northwestern story of what brought me to Northwestern. I guess I was destined to go there, even if it was through the back door.
LISA BYINGTON: For me, I was attracted to sports. So I was being recruited as a basketball player. And I was always the person who grew up thinking that I would play sports for the rest of my life.
So even though I grew up with both my mom and my dad in the education field and as teachers, I hope they're not listening to this when I was saying that I wasn't really looking at schools for academics. It was athletics first. And if they had a great academic school, that was always a great hand-in-hand kind of thing.
At the time-- I'll date myself. I think I'm the oldest one here between the three of us. But in the '90s is when-- the mid-'90s is when I went to Northwestern, and they were just coming off a Big Ten Championship. The women's basketball program was like around 1990.
And so that caught my eye. And the fact that it was close to a big city-- I grew up in Michigan. So I grew up in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Really, Portage, Michigan, but I say Kalamazoo because no one knows where Portage Michigan is. And so it wasn't that far.
It was-- Cassidy basically ended up in her hometown. I did not want to go to school that was too close to home, but I did also want to be able to drive home. And mom and dad could help me with laundry and all that stuff too, if I needed. So Northwestern, all things considered, in terms of athletics-- and then I did pay attention to the academic piece. I was like, oh, they're a really good school.
They're competitive athletically, academically. So that's kind of the reason why I chose Northwestern. And a little bit like Cassidy, I didn't go into Medill my freshman year. I actually applied late my freshman year and got denied.
My-- I struggled with being away from home for the first time. And so my GPA was not high enough, so I had to go through basically an entire year-- maybe halfway through my sophomore year where I applied again. So it took me 2 times to apply to Medill to be able to get in.
And I went through the undergrad in a print journalism curriculum, and then decided late that I was interested in broadcasting. So I went through the graduate school program. So I got a bachelor's in print journalism and then a master's concentration in broadcast. So technically, I was there for five years.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: And you worked full time because you played two sports, right?
LISA BYINGTON: I did. I did-- not the entire time. So it was a crossover. So I was recruited to play basketball. So four years of basketball and about 2 and 1/2 of soccer. So I just figured--
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Did you walk on?
LISA BYINGTON: --you're not busy enough going to Northwestern and doing the academic stuff and playing one sport. Why not add two? I was--
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Wait, did you walk on the soccer team or--
LISA BYINGTON: I did. So funny story about that. So Marcia McDermott was the head soccer coach at the time. And so my freshman year was actually the first year that the women's soccer program began.
And so she was just looking for athletes at the time to fill the roster spot. So I literally remember going into the weight room to do a weight workout for the basketball team. And she came up and intercepted me, and she stood in front of me, and she said, are you Lisa?
And I said, yeah. And she said, I saw that you were all state for soccer in high school. Would you like to join the soccer team as well? And I said, no, absolutely not.
That was-- I already talked about-- I mean, just handling everything with Northwestern and being a student athlete, and the demand of the academics. And it was just overwhelming. So it basically was not like a no, never-- don't talk to me ever again.
It was a maybe not now kind of answer. And so it was like junior year that-- so I did junior senior and graduate school year with soccer. But I'll say this. Crossing over sports was actually the most fun I had at Northwestern, because being a division I athlete is so demanding.
And I had never-- my parents were great. I talked about how they're educators and teachers, and they were so great in making sure that I was well-balanced and did a lot of different things. I didn't focus just on Basketball and one sport. I did a lot.
So when I got to college and I was only playing basketball, it was the first time in my life I'd only done that. So to have-- and to meet other student athletes in a different sport, to be able to juggle different things, different practices. You're around different people, different schedules. So that was actually-- as weird as it sounds, it was the busiest time, but it was the most fun that I had.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Yeah, you're probably more organized. I mean, you figure that out also as you get older. The busier you get, you can get more done. The fact that you pick that up your junior and senior year-- it wasn't like freshman/sophomore year when you don't know any better. You're just kind of like-- that's incredible. Which sport did you-- I mean, obviously you got recruited for basketball, but what sport did you like more?
LISA BYINGTON: Well, basketball for sure. I think soccer came more easily to me because I didn't really work on it. I played AAU basketball. I never really got into club soccer.
It was something that I kind of played in the offseason kind of thing, but ended up being pretty good at it. But I just didn't work at soccer like I did basketball. But you played like three sports in high school, or two?
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Yeah. I mean, look, so soccer was my best sport, but like you, I didn't invest in club because I played basketball and I also ran cross country. And it just-- I think I was-- I don't know how much when you were playing, there was like such a lean into focusing on just one sport.
But it was just really picking up in my area, you have to either commit to soccer or commit to basketball. And I'm like, we talked off air. My graduating class was close to 1,000 people, and I was the only three sport athlete in my entire class because just people fizzled out.
And it was something that I took pride in is to play those sports. But I think it got held against me in recruiting and awards. And not that I'm holding any grudges, Lisa. Not that I'm going to bring in politics of high school sports, but eh, Illinois High School Association, you guys did me dirty.
But I was able to play club sports at Northwestern. That was really fun. Played club basketball, play a little club soccer. My Northwestern experience was-- like I said, I grew up in Evanston, and I lived at home. So I didn't get really integrated into the student population that much.
The most I did was working for NN and getting to know my classmates through working on NNN together, because I also was-- like I said, I was working a lot too at Kellogg. So a lot of my friends were the office assistants at Northwestern who were in like their '50s and '60s.
So there are some regrets that I didn't have a traditional college experience. I was kind of like a commuter. But I'm so grateful to Northwestern because I do feel like it opened up so many doors. I got my first two jobs at the job fair at Northwestern.
I say this to any students at Northwestern I get a chance to talk to, that taking advantage of not only the alumni network, but just the connections that the school has. It's the greatest thing you can do for just getting your foot in the door. And I was able to get a job at a production company in Chicago called Intersport as a production assistant. And then that kind of turned into some on air work.
And then I also got a job at a tech company called Navtech that actually ran the traffic information for WMAQ, which is the NBC station in Chicago. And I became an early morning traffic producer, which then turned into the weekend traffic reporter. So--
LISA BYINGTON: I feel like everyone's great career is always somehow start in traffic or weather or something.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Right?
[CHUCKLING]
Yes--
LISA BYINGTON: You can find that it's so many people's backgrounds.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Oh, my gosh. You wouldn't even-- it's so funny because my husband, who was my boyfriend at the time in college-- we met at Northwestern-- he was like, you have no idea where you're going. How are you a traffic reporter, the whole job was to basically give-- a weekend traffic reporter is basically, hey, there's this festival, take these detours.
And I had no clue. I had no good business being on market three television telling people where to go to avoid shutdowns. But I thank Northwestern for the opportunity, which taught me some good life lessons that do some homework, learn your craft.
LISA BYINGTON: Yeah, totally. My first job was in Alpena, Michigan. And I don't know if you guys have ever heard of Alpena. Most people haven't.
And so it's way up in Northern Michigan. And I think we all know local markets are measured by population size, basically. New York is 1, LA and Chicago are 2 and 3 right there. And I think they stopped counting at like-- I don't know-- 213, and Alpena was ranked at 211 at the time.
[CHUCKLING]
So I'm not going to lie. So I said that I spent five years at Northwestern. I Got two degrees, a bachelor's and a master's. So I'm thinking that I'm going to go big market. When you graduate, you graduate from one of the best journalism schools in the country.
And that's just not the case. So I realized that-- and this is what I told myself-- look, Lisa, it's not where you start, it's where you finish. And you need to get your foot in the door.
And so my first job was as a local sports reporter weekend anchor in Alpena, Michigan. And I covered things like the brown trout festival in Alpena community college. Their nickname was the lumberjacks, and about maybe like 20 different high schools.
And when I say 20 different high schools, each high school was probably 30 minutes away from each other, and that was close because it's a real rural area. I got paid $14,000 my first year, and then kind of mid way through, got a bump up to $15,000, and I thought it was really doing well.
I was living the large life then. But I love it. And I'm sure with the first few jobs you were talking about, Cassidy, that you wouldn't change it for the world, because it's like, you have to do a little bit of everything.
And what I learned is I was working a lot of hours and I wasn't getting paid a whole lot, and I didn't care. That's when I knew that was in the right business, because I'm not checking my watch and I'm not checking my bank account. But I felt fulfilled and happy. And I was like, this is the job-- this is a profession that I want to do.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Yeah. What was the trip that-- or the network or city that you went to when you were an undergrad for Medill? I don't know. They changed the name of it. It was like a TA when I was--
LISA BYINGTON: Yeah, so I actually went to-- so it was a graduate school program and-- well, I-- so for undergrad, I did print. So that was basically out in Mundelein, and I basically wrote and edited for The Daily Herald over there.
And then got a chance to do it for graduate school too for the TV side. We were in Washington DC for three months, and the TV station I had to report for was in Vermont. So I actually got to interview Senator Bernie Sanders, which [laughs] back in 1999 Bernie Sanders.
That was kind of fun, and always had to get kind of creative because there wasn't obvious stories about Vermont-- stuff happening in DC. And I always had to localize things. So for instance, there was the spelling bee that went on, but Vermont was one of the few states in the country that didn't have a spelling bee contestant that was taking place in DC. But one of the spelling bee judges was actually from Vermont, so did a feature on him. You just got to work with--
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Gotta find your angle.
LISA BYINGTON: --dig a little bit and-- yeah. Where did you go?
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: So it's interesting you said that you interviewed Bernie Sanders. I went to Quincy, Illinois, WGEM, and I had a moment where I interviewed Dick Durbin, Senator of Illinois.
And I forget the story, but it was pretty cool because I was like, I knew I never really wanted to be in news, but news teaches you so many foundational lessons about journalism. They gave me an opportunity to do a couple of sports broadcasts while I was there, so I was fortunate. But I mean, that experience is what Northwestern does to create organic experience for their students is-- it can't be understated.
I mean, that was one of my biggest life lessons as-- especially for me, who still was like a block away from my parents even when I moved out of the house. This was the furthest I'd been just on my own. I think my door was basically like a cardboard, the place I lived in, and shopping at the dollar store for food.
But it was just like-- it was beyond-- I was living the dream, being on air and covering the small town's news stories, like the pumpkin carving fest. And their one flight that comes into their airport being delayed was a story, I think like something-- it was-- but still, I just felt like it was the biggest deal.
And I had such a fear. Even though I wanted to be on TV, I was always in my head. I think even on NN, I would do these stand UPS.
And I think if anyone would dig up the tapes, I would-- I'd break down because I'm like, I can't do this, I can't do this! But Northwestern and doing that TA program forced me to just kind of keep getting over the hump, because otherwise, I just would have ran in a corner and hid.
So that experience is incredible. And I actually had Professor Greenwald, who was my professor there. She's still there, Max? Eva Greenwald. Yeah, she was like instrumental in helping me believe in myself.
And she came and visited me out in Quincy, and it was kind of just that big hug I needed to keep going. And then they actually offered me a job after-- at the end of that run. And that was another confidence booster that I could be in this business. And to get that all while still in school, this is why I'm so grateful that it all lined up for me to end up at Northwestern.
And I came out of Northwestern at a really interesting time, where digital media was starting to really find its place. Social media was launching while I was in college. Facebook launched my freshman year, and then Twitter launched after I graduated. And Northwestern was ahead of its time. They created this program called Medill 2020, which was to prepare students for what media was going to look like in 2020.
LISA BYINGTON: Was it accurate?
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: It was a focus on digital media. It was as accurate as it could be with the information that they had. We created an online presence, and copyright situations when using other people's information online.
So I just thought that was brilliant, because it helped me have this strong interest in digital media, which has really defined my whole career. It's what has opened a lot of doors for me, not just from inner sport and Navtech, but then to Fox Sports and then to ESPN. And being able to have that curiosity about what was happening around me, which I think Northwestern really helped open my eyes that this is-- we're in a changing time, so try to take advantage.
And I think that just became innate in me from just that foundation laid by Northwestern. So I keep saying it. I really do owe so much to Northwestern in that regard.
LISA BYINGTON: I love hearing stories about how people got into the business and worked through the business. I always-- when you talk to students, I always say, there's no right or wrong blueprint. Because if you lie in 20 journalists up or broadcasters in line, I mean, they're all going to have 20 different stories about how they got started.
And you took a digital path. Like for me, I was laughing when you were saying that, you know, Facebook started this time and Twitter shortly after you graduated. For me, when I went to school, email began.
I swear I'm not 75 years old. But I still remember senior year in high school and people were like, when you go to college, you're going to have this email thing. And we're like, what is that? You could write messages on a computer and other people-- so it was just kind of digesting all that.
And social media was way down the line after that. But there's just different ways to get into it. For me, really, the only route was local news. And so when you get out of college, it wasn't-- you didn't have any digital stuff that was available or digital jobs.
So I always tell people now who are graduating a or in school right now, there's way more. And I don't-- I'm sure you agree with it. You're nodding your head.
There are way more opportunities for you to get in the business, and get your feet wet, and get your reps, because the digital world has just it's exploded, right. So there's so many more opportunities than in 1999 and 2000 when I was looking for my first job out of school.
So take advantage of it. That's my best advice to anybody who's listening. Take advantage of some of those opportunities that you have. And there's not a too-small opportunity.
Just if it's an opportunity, it's an opportunity. Jump at it, take it. It might not be-- it's probably not going to be your dream job, but like we were talking about earlier, it's not where you start, it's where you finish. And you just need to get reps, and experience an opportunity, and build your network. And there's a lot of different ways to do it.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Yeah. I mean, hearing you just need reps, I used to cringe when--
LISA BYINGTON: You hate that, right?
[CHUCKLES]
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: --say that to me, because that's all I got. You just need more reps. I'm like, well-- like Veruca Salt, I want it now! And I think that kind of insatiable desire to keep going has helped me.
But it's true. I mean, look, hindsight is 20/20. But even now, yes, I've been on the sidelines for close to 10 seasons, but I feel like I'm just now really starting to feel comfortable because I'm around these players, these coaches, these assistants, and training staffs, and PR staffs just a lot more, and that just builds.
And so sometimes, it may feel like if you're just starting in this business and you're not catching on, there's value to every experience you have. Like you said, any opportunity, take it because you're going to learn something new.
You never know what door could open up for you, what person you may meet who may know another person, who can like point you in that direction. And no can lead to a yes. And you've heard all these cliches, but you just got to keep moving forward. And I think one of the best things about the early part of this career is being able to make mistakes without anyone really caring [laughing].
LISA BYINGTON: I'm laughing because I think about the mistakes that we made. Like when I was in Alpena, Michigan, the station I worked for was-- the call letters were WBKB, which we joked that stood for We Barely Know Broadcasting.
[CHUCKLING]
And that's true, and it's a great point. You can make mistakes in smaller markets and smaller jobs that you just can't when you get to a larger stage.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Yeah. How did you know that you wanted to-- did you always know you wanted to be in play by play?
LISA BYINGTON: No. It's a great question, because I said earlier, I was always the kid who would watch sports thinking I was going to be the Athlete of the broadcasters talking about it. And I know so many play by plays that would say, at the age of six or seven years old, I knew I wanted to be a play by play, and I was watching sports to listen to the broadcasters and the play by play.
I was totally opposite. It was really in college at Northwestern when I realized, as a backup point guard, I'm probably not going to play for the rest of my life, so I probably should start thinking about real life stuff. And it was then that-- I always thought, quite honestly, I was going to be an anchor at SportsCenter, because that's everything that everybody watched.
And I mean, I would watch the replays of SportsCenter. And I'd wake up at 7:00 AM and eat my cereal. I'd watch the same SportsCenter, 7:00 AM to 8:00 AM to 9:00. And then my mom would have to push me to school. But that's-- but that was like the prime job at the time. So I always envisioned myself having that.
My second job, I went from Alpena, Michigan, to Lansing, Michigan. So I was at a big ten city when Big Ten Network began, and it was in 2007. So it was a year-- and it was really an untraditional launch of a conference network.
Now we have SEC network, and ACC Network, and Pac-12, and it's just what everybody knows now. But when the Big Ten launched the Big Ten Network, it was so new and different. And so at the time, in year number one in 2007, they were actually just looking for people.
And me being in Lansing, Michigan, I was just in the right spot at the right time. So they came to me and asked if I would do some sideline reporting for football. I'd never been a sideline reporter. And I said, sure, why not?
I was scared to death. I didn't know what I was doing. My first game, I was actually tethered to the wall. I wrote everything on an index card, and I thought that that was sideline reporting.
My microphone was actually tethered to the wall. My IFB-- my earpiece was tethered to the wall, because they just didn't have enough equipment to have the proper ability for me to roam the field and that sort of thing. So that's how I started was in sideline reporting.
I started to do some studio hosting. And then there was a boss-- one of my bosses at Big Ten Network that said, hey, you're in Lansing-- we need a play by play for this women's basketball game. It's Michigan state, Indiana. Would you like to try it?
And I said, yeah, sure. I anchored the weekend sportscast. How much different could it be? And he's like, ah, actually a lot different.
[CHUCKLING]
So I gave it a shot. I was horrible at it in my own opinion, because I just didn't know what I was doing. But I really got a taste of it and loved it, and just said yes to everything from that point forward, from field hockey to gymnastics, to eventually more basketball and some football. And just really, really-- because I was-- because I had the courage to say yes to something I didn't know anything about, it's led to a career after that.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: That's half the battle. I mean, the courage to take the-- I don't have the courage-- I don't have the courage to be play by play. I-- that is a very hard job.
LISA BYINGTON: What was your job?
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: I was hired by ESPN as a host, and I'd been a host my whole life. I did do-- speaking of the Big Ten network-- just a side note, I was hired freelance for them to do a Penn State basketball game and never done sidelines before even remotely.
And I had-- no one told me what to do. I was freelance. So they were like, just go here. It was my assignment, and no one told me what to do.
The producer, I think, was remote. I think I was like-- everybody else was on site, but I didn't really know the play by play and the analyst that well. And there was one point where I'm like, what am I supposed to do?
No one took me aside and taught me the basics of the job, because I was so focused on-- I came from a different world-- a digital media world. I was creating these short videos, like sports reports. And then it was like a quick change to, in some ways, traditional media.
And so I'd watched enough games to understand, on the surface, the job, but I didn't know what it took. I didn't know how to get in with coaches, get inside information. I just knew-- I hear a lot of reports about what's happening in the huddle. So I decide that the thing I needed to do was, during the timeout when the team was on the court, I would go into the huddle. And I literally went into--
[CHUCKLING]
LISA BYINGTON: You did not. You did not. You sat right next to the coach, and you're like--
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Yes, I'm in there with my notepad. And he looks at me with a death stare. And I'm like, mm, guess I'm not supposed to do that.
But I will say, God bless all of the reporters who can read lips, because I got nothing. And I just-- when it's-- until this day-- like yesterday, I was in Philly for Bucks Sixers. And I just finished my interview with Nick Nurse.
And I'm walking past the Bucks' huddle in their bench. And I'm like, let me stand here and see if I can figure out what Doc's saying. And I think Doc is probably a foot away.
I still can't hear him. I'm thinking, I can't make out what he's saying. I go, this is just-- it's not my strength. It's not my strength. Thank goodness we have cameras in there.
If there was something juicy, they'll do it on like, on All Access. But that has not been my strength. Did you like sideline reporting when you did it?
LISA BYINGTON: I equate-- it's a really hard job. A lot of people--
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Oh, I can do it all.
LISA BYINGTON: Yes-- yeah, I mean, you're talking about play by play, but sideline has its own new different nuances of why it's hard. And I equated sideline reporting to the hamster running in a wheel. You're working so hard, and then you stop, and you look around, and you're in the exact same spot that you started.
And you try to run again, and work hard again, and you look around, and you're in the exact same spot. And it's so-- for sideline reporting, a lot of it depends on the producer who you have, who is comfortable in getting you in the game or not, and how involved you are. And some of it depends on the game too.
You could have this-- prepare for this great report. How many times do you prepare for the great report, and then all of a sudden, this 50-yard touchdown pass is happening. And you have to stop talking and let the play-- because the play is the most important thing. Or an alley-oop dunk that lights the arena on fire.
And so it's like, you just have to adapt and adjust, and you have to realize that you might talk twice a game. You might get eight hits in a game, and nothing is guaranteed. And here's the deal too-- is when you talk to-- now coaches-- like I watched you in the Philly Milwaukee game.
And now you get coaches in between quarters. And it's like the last-- at halftime, definitely, the last thing that they're thinking about and want to do is talk to the reporter. You have to adjust to the different attitudes and answers you might get.
But now, I didn't have to deal with talking to coaches mid-game. So in between quarters, which is like all they're thinking about is getting back to their huddle. So it's just you got to be quick, you got to adjust to any answers. They give you.
And sometimes, they're short, pop, right? And sometimes, they're gracious with their time. But just the adaptability of reporters is something that I found that was really, really tough. You just have to learn that you can talk for 40, or sometimes you got to cut your report down to 15 seconds and be good with it.
LISA BYINGTON: Yeah, it's hard too, because your performance-- the highest part of your performance is often dependent on someone else, which is your post-game interview or whatever-- your coach's interview. You can't predict how they're going to respond, but you can control how you respond and are present in the moment.
And you can prepare as much as you can to making sure you're armed with the proper information and understanding of the player. But it takes reps, it takes time around these people. It takes time reading, all of it. That's this business. It's a privilege to be in this business, but it is a business that we're often working when other people are resting.
LISA BYINGTON: Because that's when sports happen, right? Sports happen at nights and on weekends, and so you have to be ready for that. That's when, you know, you really love your job is when that's OK.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: So taking over in Milwaukee for the lead play by play obviously was historic. But also I'm sure an opportunity to be a part of a league that you've been following your whole life. What's it been like for you being the voice of the Milwaukee Bucks and interactions with guys like Giannis?
LISA BYINGTON: First of all, it's a true honor. I replaced Jim Paschke, who had had that seat for 35 years. And one of the first things I did is call him once I got the job.
I just wanted to get his perspective on the city, on the market, on the franchise, on the team. And I say this all the time. My first conversation with him, he said, Lisa, you have a great seat, and never take that for granted.
And I never do. I always smile right before I pick up the headset, because I just feel so honored. And I never pick up the headset thinking as a female play by play. I pick up the headset feeling honored that I get to be the next voice of the Milwaukee Bucks.
And with such a great franchise, and year in and year out lately, they're contenders to win a championship. You have a generational talent in Giannis, and now you add someone like Damian Lillard, and it's phenomenal. I called a Dame time game-winning bucket right at the buzzer.
And it was amazing. Called Giannis-- 64 points. He set a franchise record. And you take the headset off, and you drive home, and you think, man, what a life. What a great job that I have?
So first and foremost, I never take that for granted. Now, having said that, I understand the responsibility that I have, that someone like Kate Scott with Philadelphia has. Jenny Cavnar, who just recently became a voice of the MLB team.
It's just great to see that there are women out there that are doing-- Beth Mowins nationally. It's just great to see women who are getting these opportunities in spaces where you just don't hear a woman's voice, and being able to do the job that now you're seeing the doors open in other leagues and other sports teams.
And more women-- I can't even-- I love the fact that I think now, it's going to take more than two hands to count how many female play by plays there are across many different networks. And that was just not the case. I grew up like so many great announcers, but a lot of them were white men.
It's fine. There was nothing bad about the way they announced, but that was my role model. So I always say that it's our responsibility to normalize this. So you have-- how old is your child now, Cassidy?
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Five.
LISA BYINGTON: Five. So it's those children, it's those generations of children who are now going to grow up and not think twice, because that's what-- they turn on the TV now, and they could hear a woman's voice, and that's normal to them. That's kind of the goal for me is-- and I'm sure everybody else who has some of these positions and some of these nontraditional roles, is how can we make it normal?
How can we make it what I call background noise? Think of how many times you listen to a game, and you don't think twice because it's two men calling the game. And then I do it too.
If there's a woman calling a football game or a men's basketball game, I stop and think, oh, who's that? And so if we can get to the point where maybe your five-year-old is growing up and is now 18, 19, 20 years old, and all these children who are now growing up and they don't stop or think twice-- like, who's the woman calling the game-- they just think, oh, that's an announcer calling the game-- then that's the progress that we make.
So it's-- I'm honored to be in that position. But if I thought about that day in and day out with all the games that we do, I wouldn't be able to do my job. I understand the responsibility. I don't dwell on it day in and day out, if that makes sense.
LISA BYINGTON: Perfectly. Being a woman in this business, you have to answer a lot about being a woman in the business. But even when I broke into the business, graduated from Northwestern in 2007, I was surrounded by women.
And I grew up watching women. I grew up watching women who are still on the air today thriving. And Pam Oliver was one of my first inspirations as well as Michele Tafoya, and Hannah Storm, and Linda Cohn. But even when getting to ESPN in 2010, I had several female producers. I had several female directors.
I wish I saw more females in the executive offices, but I think that's also the next step. I think also to your point, hearing more play by play, I think goes hand-in-hand with seeing and hearing more analysts. I know you work with a dear friend in Sarah Kustok a lot on college basketball.
One of my best friends, Doris Burke, she is arguably the GOAT, and going to be calling the NBA Finals this year, and couldn't be more proud and happy for her. And I just think, to your point, it's the background noise of it's the norm.
And I think the more women whose experience of seeing women being the norm, that just naturally changes how people feel about women being worthy of these positions. Of course, there's going to always be people who don't like you, but that's this business. That's entertainment.
That's another lesson you need to learn. While Medill is the finest journalism school, a lot of when it comes to sports is about entertainment. And entertainment is subjective. And coverage, even though there's the game, and the rules, and there's the basic understanding of the beginning, the middle, and the end, there's a big performance element to it.
And so I think the biggest advice I can give anyone who's trying to get into sports is to try to not only arm yourself with as much information about the business in itself and your craft, but figure out who you are the most along the way. Because if you're trying to be this carbon copy of what you think is supposed to be on air, it's always going to backfire on you. I think early on in my career, I was trying to be like Ms. ESPN, Ms. Studio.
Like, people would always say I had four different voices, because I think I need to sound a certain way. But I think when I really found my groove is when I leaned into my passion in how I enjoyed covering sports and my viewpoint. And I think some people liked it. Not everybody, but enough people liked it.
That gave me confidence to continue on and explore how I can get more creative in my presentation. And I think that gave me confidence, because I think the biggest part of this job-- there's so many people who want to be in this business, and it's a competitive field. It comes down to when you're working with live sports, it's how you perform in the moment, your poise.
And the only way you can be poised is if you are confident and preparation creates confidence. And I think it was really hard for me early on. I think it's still hard for me. There's so many moments of doubt, but it's how you manage that doubt and how it motivates you. So these are just gems we're dropping, Lisa.
[CHUCKLING]
LISA BYINGTON: Well, you brought up preparation, and I always say that if I felt like, man, do I belong, or am I supposed to be here, I always feel-- I always say preparation is my superpower. If you put in the time, and the research, and the prep-- and live TV is live TV, so you can't prepare for everything you're going to see.
But you can certainly do as much as you can to make yourself feel confident walking into that. And Cassidy, I would also add too for everybody who's listening about just the great preparation that Northwestern gives you.
But they also-- I don't know of any school that prepares you for possible social media critiques and backlash. And each person is different in being able to decide and learn how they want to handle that. And when I started getting some jobs-- NCAA tournament and the Bucks job-- I'll just be open.
I just-- I had talked to a sports psychologist about how do you stay focused? How do you ignore some of the criticism? And I got some great advice, like the little sticky notes that you have that-- the square sticky notes. Not the big ones, but the square sticky notes.
And the advice that I got and some of the teachings was, if you write a bunch of names on this sticky note, and those names don't fit on that sticky note, then it's critiques, and criticism, and feedback that you don't need to pay attention to. There's only a small group of co-workers, friends, family who you need to pay attention to with that.
And it's staying focused. We did an exercise where I had to balance a water bottle on my hand. And I actually wrote down on little sheets of paper criticisms that I'd seen on social media that hurt.
We're all human. So as much as we say, ah, it doesn't matter-- that doesn't bother me-- there's stuff that does because we're human. So I wrote down some things that was hard to see.
And the sports psychologist crumbled up the pieces of paper. And while I had to balance the water bottle, she was throwing the pieces of paper at me. And she said, first, I want you to try to block it with your hand while you're balancing the water bottle. Well, you guys can imagine that that's impossible to do.
I'm trying to block these pieces of paper that are flying at me and balance the water bottle, so the water bottle falls. So then the next drill was, keep your eyes focused on the water bottle, and I'm still going to throw the pieces of paper at you. So picture me balancing a water bottle in my hand, and these little pieces of paper hit me in the forehead, and the cheek, and the shoulder, but the water bottle stayed in my hand.
And so it was just a great visual and a great exercise for me to learn that there's a lot of distractions out there, and social media is one of them. But you have to determine what your focus and what your eyes are on. And that's something that no class, no journalism class can teach you. That's something that real life teaches you, and that's something that you have to figure out-- each individually-- you, being each individual, have to figure out how to handle it.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Yeah, and how much value you're placing on-- you could probably get 50 nice comments and that one critical comment-- how much value you're placing in that. It's a battle. I think this is why I don't envy young people who have grown up with social media their whole lives.
And I look at some of the young players. And even LeBron James who has been in the spotlight in a different way. I grew up, obviously, in the Chicago area. So if we're going to get into the GOAT discussion, Michael Jordan shaped me as a basketball fan.
But when I think about LeBron, and how he's endured this digital social media age with every step of the way, I do not envy these players. You and I are on a very, very small spectrum compared to how much these NBA players are criticized in the spotlight. And this is something that goes back to the poise, is it's such a sliver of difference between some of the talent on that level in terms of the NBA.
But it's really how you handle those moments. And I think that that can also carry over to, you know, being in this business. And part of that is giving yourself grace, and being kind to yourself, and making sure you're saying nice things to yourself.
And I say this out loud, because I have to hear it sometimes. I will pick myself apart for a stumble here or a missed question there. I think some of it motivates me, but I think part of it also can knock me off of my center.
So I think that goes back to making sure you're working on who you are and who you want to be in the business. That's just being an adult. It's finding balance and finding meaning to what you're doing.
We're all struggling. It's like-- we don't-- this is not an Instagram life. It's not just highlights. There's ups and downs, and making sure that you have-- surrounding yourself with the right people. And making decisions to take care of yourself, I think, ultimately, is what really sets yourself-- sets you up for success. That and a degree from Northwestern University.
[CHUCKLING]
LISA BYINGTON: Let me just-- I guess we're broadcasters, so it's like, let me just wrap this up.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Yeah, let's wrap this up. Let's bring it on home.
LISA BYINGTON: Wrap this up. We're getting the wrap sign. Cassidy, when you-- I'm sure you're like me, and you talk to a lot of students-- give advice, what's the biggest-- something that you would like to know when you were that young Evanston Township High school student and thinking about going into journalism or broadcasting? What is something that you would like to know?
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Oh, man. I mean, something I would have liked to know at Northwestern. Gosh. That even when it gets-- that it's going to get easier.
I mean, even if it's harder, it's going to get easier because the thing you think is hard right now, you're going to master that if you just keep going. There's going to be a new challenge ahead of you, but that's the fun of it. That's the fun of the business.
I really think back at like my early years of working four or five jobs at one time, and balancing waking up at 3:00 in the morning and do the traffic reporting into my 9:00 to 5:00 or 9:00 to 7:00 production job, and living life there.
The grind is going to make you, because that work ethic is going to help inspire so many opportunities down the line. And so I guess that would be what I would say, that it's going to pay off and it's going to get easier. I'm not saying that our jobs are easy, but the little things that you're worried about-- standing on Ryan Field trying to get a stand up done, crying because you can't like, you know, get through a 30 second on cam.
LISA BYINGTON: Was that you?
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Yeah. Oh, hell yeah. Multiple times. I'm like, I can't-- why can't I-- because I'm not-- I'm trying to memorize what I'm saying instead of just talking.
And I'm like, I can't do this. And I'm missing my deadline, make the nightly NNN report. And I'm just like, uh. And it's going to get easier, and you're going to look back and realize that that is-- going through those moments is only going to help make you be more of you. So what would you say?
LISA BYINGTON: Man, I was hoping you wouldn't circle back to me. No, [CHUCKLING] I would say that I hope just make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. I think earlier I had said, don't check your watch on how many hours you're working.
Don't check your bank account because there might not be a lot of money there. But check your heart, and check your passion, and make sure that you're doing the job for the right reasons. And, I remember in Lansing, Michigan, I was-- I had to-- back when we had tape to tape sort of machines, and I had to archive what we did for the week.
And it was a Sunday morning, because I was there for that long. I had anchored the 11:00 o'clock local newscast, and then I had to anchor the last week's worth of stuff or had to archive it. And it ended up being like 1:30 AM or 2:00 AM. And it was a February in Michigan, so of course, it had been snowing.
And I walked out, and my car is the only one that's left in the parking lot. And I am just walking out, and I'm thinking, does anybody care of what I just did? I just put in a 12-hour, 13-hour day. Is anybody paying attention, does anybody care?
I don't know if it was like the moonlight, shining on my car or whatever. Just something looked different at that moment when I asked myself that question. And I realized that, Lisa, you care, and it doesn't matter if there's five people watching or 50 people watching. You love this job.
And it was just-- I go back to that moment, because there's-- I wasn't getting paid a whole lot. I was working a lot of hours, but just had the passion for the job. And I knew I was doing it for the right reasons.
So I was frustrated at the time, because I was getting some no's. I wanted to work in bigger markets. And I think I just had decided that I'm not going to let someone else's no be my own no.
And that someday-- there's doors that are closing, but someday, if you do it the right way and you treat people the right way, there's going to be a door that opens for you. And it might be a door that's a job to the Milwaukee Bucks, and being the NBA announcer for an NBA team. So you just got to be patient and do things for the right reasons.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Absolutely. Well--
[MUSIC PLAYING]
--it was great to have this conversation with you. I hope those listening found some moments that spoke to them. And Max, thanks for bringing us together.
Hubbarth is an Emmy award winning Evanston native working as an anchor for ESPN's SportsCenter, NBA Tonight, and First Take. We hope you enjoy this special conversation just in time for March Madness. Go cats.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: So I grew up in Evanston. The thing about Evanston is that Northwestern is there, and Evanston also has like, its own pride separate from Northwestern. I grew up having friends whose parents worked at Northwestern, but like never think about going to Northwestern because it was there until I started to really explore wanting to be in this business, probably around middle school and then into high school.
But I didn't apply to Northwestern when I was applying to schools, because frankly, I couldn't afford it and my parents couldn't afford it. So I actually went to University of Illinois my freshman year, and I went there, and I majored in communications, and worked at a radio station, and there wasn't really a broadcast journalism program.
And then also my father actually was diagnosed with throat cancer, and he's cancer free now. But it was very scary at the time. So I was coming home a lot every weekend, every other weekend just wanting to see him and keep up with what was going on with him.
And it just kind of got to a point in the year at Illinois, where I was like, I want to be back in Evanston, and I just don't feel like I'm getting what I need out of U-of-I. I want to be a broadcast journalist, so I applied to transfer to Northwestern.
And I did. I put all my effort into my application, but I didn't think I was going to get in. I asked my parents like, hey, I'm going to try to transfer. Is this OK? And my parents were like, sure, go ahead. I mean, I think they believed in me, but I don't know if they really, like thought it was all going to come together.
And I got a letter back saying that you got into Northwestern. And then we were all like, now what? Now what do we do? How do I-- how do we make this dream a reality?
My parents-- somehow my parents figured out with student loans. And I lived at home for a year or two, and I worked full-time. But I was able to go to Northwestern, and I didn't actually start at Medill.
I transferred again once I got into Northwestern. So I kind of took the back door not just into Northwestern, but into Medill. From there, I did summer school and everything else that I could to try to get myself up to speed.
And the rest is history. I worked full time at the Kellogg School of-- the business school at Northwestern as a work study, and was able to work a couple jobs. And I think my parents are still paying those student loans, and there's a lifetime loan.
I've taken those on, but we pulled off a miraculous feat to get me to Northwestern. But I think my mom knew that it was going to open up so many doors for me, and it truly it truly did. So that's my Northwestern story of what brought me to Northwestern. I guess I was destined to go there, even if it was through the back door.
LISA BYINGTON: For me, I was attracted to sports. So I was being recruited as a basketball player. And I was always the person who grew up thinking that I would play sports for the rest of my life.
So even though I grew up with both my mom and my dad in the education field and as teachers, I hope they're not listening to this when I was saying that I wasn't really looking at schools for academics. It was athletics first. And if they had a great academic school, that was always a great hand-in-hand kind of thing.
At the time-- I'll date myself. I think I'm the oldest one here between the three of us. But in the '90s is when-- the mid-'90s is when I went to Northwestern, and they were just coming off a Big Ten Championship. The women's basketball program was like around 1990.
And so that caught my eye. And the fact that it was close to a big city-- I grew up in Michigan. So I grew up in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Really, Portage, Michigan, but I say Kalamazoo because no one knows where Portage Michigan is. And so it wasn't that far.
It was-- Cassidy basically ended up in her hometown. I did not want to go to school that was too close to home, but I did also want to be able to drive home. And mom and dad could help me with laundry and all that stuff too, if I needed. So Northwestern, all things considered, in terms of athletics-- and then I did pay attention to the academic piece. I was like, oh, they're a really good school.
They're competitive athletically, academically. So that's kind of the reason why I chose Northwestern. And a little bit like Cassidy, I didn't go into Medill my freshman year. I actually applied late my freshman year and got denied.
My-- I struggled with being away from home for the first time. And so my GPA was not high enough, so I had to go through basically an entire year-- maybe halfway through my sophomore year where I applied again. So it took me 2 times to apply to Medill to be able to get in.
And I went through the undergrad in a print journalism curriculum, and then decided late that I was interested in broadcasting. So I went through the graduate school program. So I got a bachelor's in print journalism and then a master's concentration in broadcast. So technically, I was there for five years.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: And you worked full time because you played two sports, right?
LISA BYINGTON: I did. I did-- not the entire time. So it was a crossover. So I was recruited to play basketball. So four years of basketball and about 2 and 1/2 of soccer. So I just figured--
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Did you walk on?
LISA BYINGTON: --you're not busy enough going to Northwestern and doing the academic stuff and playing one sport. Why not add two? I was--
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Wait, did you walk on the soccer team or--
LISA BYINGTON: I did. So funny story about that. So Marcia McDermott was the head soccer coach at the time. And so my freshman year was actually the first year that the women's soccer program began.
And so she was just looking for athletes at the time to fill the roster spot. So I literally remember going into the weight room to do a weight workout for the basketball team. And she came up and intercepted me, and she stood in front of me, and she said, are you Lisa?
And I said, yeah. And she said, I saw that you were all state for soccer in high school. Would you like to join the soccer team as well? And I said, no, absolutely not.
That was-- I already talked about-- I mean, just handling everything with Northwestern and being a student athlete, and the demand of the academics. And it was just overwhelming. So it basically was not like a no, never-- don't talk to me ever again.
It was a maybe not now kind of answer. And so it was like junior year that-- so I did junior senior and graduate school year with soccer. But I'll say this. Crossing over sports was actually the most fun I had at Northwestern, because being a division I athlete is so demanding.
And I had never-- my parents were great. I talked about how they're educators and teachers, and they were so great in making sure that I was well-balanced and did a lot of different things. I didn't focus just on Basketball and one sport. I did a lot.
So when I got to college and I was only playing basketball, it was the first time in my life I'd only done that. So to have-- and to meet other student athletes in a different sport, to be able to juggle different things, different practices. You're around different people, different schedules. So that was actually-- as weird as it sounds, it was the busiest time, but it was the most fun that I had.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Yeah, you're probably more organized. I mean, you figure that out also as you get older. The busier you get, you can get more done. The fact that you pick that up your junior and senior year-- it wasn't like freshman/sophomore year when you don't know any better. You're just kind of like-- that's incredible. Which sport did you-- I mean, obviously you got recruited for basketball, but what sport did you like more?
LISA BYINGTON: Well, basketball for sure. I think soccer came more easily to me because I didn't really work on it. I played AAU basketball. I never really got into club soccer.
It was something that I kind of played in the offseason kind of thing, but ended up being pretty good at it. But I just didn't work at soccer like I did basketball. But you played like three sports in high school, or two?
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Yeah. I mean, look, so soccer was my best sport, but like you, I didn't invest in club because I played basketball and I also ran cross country. And it just-- I think I was-- I don't know how much when you were playing, there was like such a lean into focusing on just one sport.
But it was just really picking up in my area, you have to either commit to soccer or commit to basketball. And I'm like, we talked off air. My graduating class was close to 1,000 people, and I was the only three sport athlete in my entire class because just people fizzled out.
And it was something that I took pride in is to play those sports. But I think it got held against me in recruiting and awards. And not that I'm holding any grudges, Lisa. Not that I'm going to bring in politics of high school sports, but eh, Illinois High School Association, you guys did me dirty.
But I was able to play club sports at Northwestern. That was really fun. Played club basketball, play a little club soccer. My Northwestern experience was-- like I said, I grew up in Evanston, and I lived at home. So I didn't get really integrated into the student population that much.
The most I did was working for NN and getting to know my classmates through working on NNN together, because I also was-- like I said, I was working a lot too at Kellogg. So a lot of my friends were the office assistants at Northwestern who were in like their '50s and '60s.
So there are some regrets that I didn't have a traditional college experience. I was kind of like a commuter. But I'm so grateful to Northwestern because I do feel like it opened up so many doors. I got my first two jobs at the job fair at Northwestern.
I say this to any students at Northwestern I get a chance to talk to, that taking advantage of not only the alumni network, but just the connections that the school has. It's the greatest thing you can do for just getting your foot in the door. And I was able to get a job at a production company in Chicago called Intersport as a production assistant. And then that kind of turned into some on air work.
And then I also got a job at a tech company called Navtech that actually ran the traffic information for WMAQ, which is the NBC station in Chicago. And I became an early morning traffic producer, which then turned into the weekend traffic reporter. So--
LISA BYINGTON: I feel like everyone's great career is always somehow start in traffic or weather or something.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Right?
[CHUCKLING]
Yes--
LISA BYINGTON: You can find that it's so many people's backgrounds.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Oh, my gosh. You wouldn't even-- it's so funny because my husband, who was my boyfriend at the time in college-- we met at Northwestern-- he was like, you have no idea where you're going. How are you a traffic reporter, the whole job was to basically give-- a weekend traffic reporter is basically, hey, there's this festival, take these detours.
And I had no clue. I had no good business being on market three television telling people where to go to avoid shutdowns. But I thank Northwestern for the opportunity, which taught me some good life lessons that do some homework, learn your craft.
LISA BYINGTON: Yeah, totally. My first job was in Alpena, Michigan. And I don't know if you guys have ever heard of Alpena. Most people haven't.
And so it's way up in Northern Michigan. And I think we all know local markets are measured by population size, basically. New York is 1, LA and Chicago are 2 and 3 right there. And I think they stopped counting at like-- I don't know-- 213, and Alpena was ranked at 211 at the time.
[CHUCKLING]
So I'm not going to lie. So I said that I spent five years at Northwestern. I Got two degrees, a bachelor's and a master's. So I'm thinking that I'm going to go big market. When you graduate, you graduate from one of the best journalism schools in the country.
And that's just not the case. So I realized that-- and this is what I told myself-- look, Lisa, it's not where you start, it's where you finish. And you need to get your foot in the door.
And so my first job was as a local sports reporter weekend anchor in Alpena, Michigan. And I covered things like the brown trout festival in Alpena community college. Their nickname was the lumberjacks, and about maybe like 20 different high schools.
And when I say 20 different high schools, each high school was probably 30 minutes away from each other, and that was close because it's a real rural area. I got paid $14,000 my first year, and then kind of mid way through, got a bump up to $15,000, and I thought it was really doing well.
I was living the large life then. But I love it. And I'm sure with the first few jobs you were talking about, Cassidy, that you wouldn't change it for the world, because it's like, you have to do a little bit of everything.
And what I learned is I was working a lot of hours and I wasn't getting paid a whole lot, and I didn't care. That's when I knew that was in the right business, because I'm not checking my watch and I'm not checking my bank account. But I felt fulfilled and happy. And I was like, this is the job-- this is a profession that I want to do.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Yeah. What was the trip that-- or the network or city that you went to when you were an undergrad for Medill? I don't know. They changed the name of it. It was like a TA when I was--
LISA BYINGTON: Yeah, so I actually went to-- so it was a graduate school program and-- well, I-- so for undergrad, I did print. So that was basically out in Mundelein, and I basically wrote and edited for The Daily Herald over there.
And then got a chance to do it for graduate school too for the TV side. We were in Washington DC for three months, and the TV station I had to report for was in Vermont. So I actually got to interview Senator Bernie Sanders, which [laughs] back in 1999 Bernie Sanders.
That was kind of fun, and always had to get kind of creative because there wasn't obvious stories about Vermont-- stuff happening in DC. And I always had to localize things. So for instance, there was the spelling bee that went on, but Vermont was one of the few states in the country that didn't have a spelling bee contestant that was taking place in DC. But one of the spelling bee judges was actually from Vermont, so did a feature on him. You just got to work with--
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Gotta find your angle.
LISA BYINGTON: --dig a little bit and-- yeah. Where did you go?
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: So it's interesting you said that you interviewed Bernie Sanders. I went to Quincy, Illinois, WGEM, and I had a moment where I interviewed Dick Durbin, Senator of Illinois.
And I forget the story, but it was pretty cool because I was like, I knew I never really wanted to be in news, but news teaches you so many foundational lessons about journalism. They gave me an opportunity to do a couple of sports broadcasts while I was there, so I was fortunate. But I mean, that experience is what Northwestern does to create organic experience for their students is-- it can't be understated.
I mean, that was one of my biggest life lessons as-- especially for me, who still was like a block away from my parents even when I moved out of the house. This was the furthest I'd been just on my own. I think my door was basically like a cardboard, the place I lived in, and shopping at the dollar store for food.
But it was just like-- it was beyond-- I was living the dream, being on air and covering the small town's news stories, like the pumpkin carving fest. And their one flight that comes into their airport being delayed was a story, I think like something-- it was-- but still, I just felt like it was the biggest deal.
And I had such a fear. Even though I wanted to be on TV, I was always in my head. I think even on NN, I would do these stand UPS.
And I think if anyone would dig up the tapes, I would-- I'd break down because I'm like, I can't do this, I can't do this! But Northwestern and doing that TA program forced me to just kind of keep getting over the hump, because otherwise, I just would have ran in a corner and hid.
So that experience is incredible. And I actually had Professor Greenwald, who was my professor there. She's still there, Max? Eva Greenwald. Yeah, she was like instrumental in helping me believe in myself.
And she came and visited me out in Quincy, and it was kind of just that big hug I needed to keep going. And then they actually offered me a job after-- at the end of that run. And that was another confidence booster that I could be in this business. And to get that all while still in school, this is why I'm so grateful that it all lined up for me to end up at Northwestern.
And I came out of Northwestern at a really interesting time, where digital media was starting to really find its place. Social media was launching while I was in college. Facebook launched my freshman year, and then Twitter launched after I graduated. And Northwestern was ahead of its time. They created this program called Medill 2020, which was to prepare students for what media was going to look like in 2020.
LISA BYINGTON: Was it accurate?
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: It was a focus on digital media. It was as accurate as it could be with the information that they had. We created an online presence, and copyright situations when using other people's information online.
So I just thought that was brilliant, because it helped me have this strong interest in digital media, which has really defined my whole career. It's what has opened a lot of doors for me, not just from inner sport and Navtech, but then to Fox Sports and then to ESPN. And being able to have that curiosity about what was happening around me, which I think Northwestern really helped open my eyes that this is-- we're in a changing time, so try to take advantage.
And I think that just became innate in me from just that foundation laid by Northwestern. So I keep saying it. I really do owe so much to Northwestern in that regard.
LISA BYINGTON: I love hearing stories about how people got into the business and worked through the business. I always-- when you talk to students, I always say, there's no right or wrong blueprint. Because if you lie in 20 journalists up or broadcasters in line, I mean, they're all going to have 20 different stories about how they got started.
And you took a digital path. Like for me, I was laughing when you were saying that, you know, Facebook started this time and Twitter shortly after you graduated. For me, when I went to school, email began.
I swear I'm not 75 years old. But I still remember senior year in high school and people were like, when you go to college, you're going to have this email thing. And we're like, what is that? You could write messages on a computer and other people-- so it was just kind of digesting all that.
And social media was way down the line after that. But there's just different ways to get into it. For me, really, the only route was local news. And so when you get out of college, it wasn't-- you didn't have any digital stuff that was available or digital jobs.
So I always tell people now who are graduating a or in school right now, there's way more. And I don't-- I'm sure you agree with it. You're nodding your head.
There are way more opportunities for you to get in the business, and get your feet wet, and get your reps, because the digital world has just it's exploded, right. So there's so many more opportunities than in 1999 and 2000 when I was looking for my first job out of school.
So take advantage of it. That's my best advice to anybody who's listening. Take advantage of some of those opportunities that you have. And there's not a too-small opportunity.
Just if it's an opportunity, it's an opportunity. Jump at it, take it. It might not be-- it's probably not going to be your dream job, but like we were talking about earlier, it's not where you start, it's where you finish. And you just need to get reps, and experience an opportunity, and build your network. And there's a lot of different ways to do it.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Yeah. I mean, hearing you just need reps, I used to cringe when--
LISA BYINGTON: You hate that, right?
[CHUCKLES]
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: --say that to me, because that's all I got. You just need more reps. I'm like, well-- like Veruca Salt, I want it now! And I think that kind of insatiable desire to keep going has helped me.
But it's true. I mean, look, hindsight is 20/20. But even now, yes, I've been on the sidelines for close to 10 seasons, but I feel like I'm just now really starting to feel comfortable because I'm around these players, these coaches, these assistants, and training staffs, and PR staffs just a lot more, and that just builds.
And so sometimes, it may feel like if you're just starting in this business and you're not catching on, there's value to every experience you have. Like you said, any opportunity, take it because you're going to learn something new.
You never know what door could open up for you, what person you may meet who may know another person, who can like point you in that direction. And no can lead to a yes. And you've heard all these cliches, but you just got to keep moving forward. And I think one of the best things about the early part of this career is being able to make mistakes without anyone really caring [laughing].
LISA BYINGTON: I'm laughing because I think about the mistakes that we made. Like when I was in Alpena, Michigan, the station I worked for was-- the call letters were WBKB, which we joked that stood for We Barely Know Broadcasting.
[CHUCKLING]
And that's true, and it's a great point. You can make mistakes in smaller markets and smaller jobs that you just can't when you get to a larger stage.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Yeah. How did you know that you wanted to-- did you always know you wanted to be in play by play?
LISA BYINGTON: No. It's a great question, because I said earlier, I was always the kid who would watch sports thinking I was going to be the Athlete of the broadcasters talking about it. And I know so many play by plays that would say, at the age of six or seven years old, I knew I wanted to be a play by play, and I was watching sports to listen to the broadcasters and the play by play.
I was totally opposite. It was really in college at Northwestern when I realized, as a backup point guard, I'm probably not going to play for the rest of my life, so I probably should start thinking about real life stuff. And it was then that-- I always thought, quite honestly, I was going to be an anchor at SportsCenter, because that's everything that everybody watched.
And I mean, I would watch the replays of SportsCenter. And I'd wake up at 7:00 AM and eat my cereal. I'd watch the same SportsCenter, 7:00 AM to 8:00 AM to 9:00. And then my mom would have to push me to school. But that's-- but that was like the prime job at the time. So I always envisioned myself having that.
My second job, I went from Alpena, Michigan, to Lansing, Michigan. So I was at a big ten city when Big Ten Network began, and it was in 2007. So it was a year-- and it was really an untraditional launch of a conference network.
Now we have SEC network, and ACC Network, and Pac-12, and it's just what everybody knows now. But when the Big Ten launched the Big Ten Network, it was so new and different. And so at the time, in year number one in 2007, they were actually just looking for people.
And me being in Lansing, Michigan, I was just in the right spot at the right time. So they came to me and asked if I would do some sideline reporting for football. I'd never been a sideline reporter. And I said, sure, why not?
I was scared to death. I didn't know what I was doing. My first game, I was actually tethered to the wall. I wrote everything on an index card, and I thought that that was sideline reporting.
My microphone was actually tethered to the wall. My IFB-- my earpiece was tethered to the wall, because they just didn't have enough equipment to have the proper ability for me to roam the field and that sort of thing. So that's how I started was in sideline reporting.
I started to do some studio hosting. And then there was a boss-- one of my bosses at Big Ten Network that said, hey, you're in Lansing-- we need a play by play for this women's basketball game. It's Michigan state, Indiana. Would you like to try it?
And I said, yeah, sure. I anchored the weekend sportscast. How much different could it be? And he's like, ah, actually a lot different.
[CHUCKLING]
So I gave it a shot. I was horrible at it in my own opinion, because I just didn't know what I was doing. But I really got a taste of it and loved it, and just said yes to everything from that point forward, from field hockey to gymnastics, to eventually more basketball and some football. And just really, really-- because I was-- because I had the courage to say yes to something I didn't know anything about, it's led to a career after that.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: That's half the battle. I mean, the courage to take the-- I don't have the courage-- I don't have the courage to be play by play. I-- that is a very hard job.
LISA BYINGTON: What was your job?
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: I was hired by ESPN as a host, and I'd been a host my whole life. I did do-- speaking of the Big Ten network-- just a side note, I was hired freelance for them to do a Penn State basketball game and never done sidelines before even remotely.
And I had-- no one told me what to do. I was freelance. So they were like, just go here. It was my assignment, and no one told me what to do.
The producer, I think, was remote. I think I was like-- everybody else was on site, but I didn't really know the play by play and the analyst that well. And there was one point where I'm like, what am I supposed to do?
No one took me aside and taught me the basics of the job, because I was so focused on-- I came from a different world-- a digital media world. I was creating these short videos, like sports reports. And then it was like a quick change to, in some ways, traditional media.
And so I'd watched enough games to understand, on the surface, the job, but I didn't know what it took. I didn't know how to get in with coaches, get inside information. I just knew-- I hear a lot of reports about what's happening in the huddle. So I decide that the thing I needed to do was, during the timeout when the team was on the court, I would go into the huddle. And I literally went into--
[CHUCKLING]
LISA BYINGTON: You did not. You did not. You sat right next to the coach, and you're like--
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Yes, I'm in there with my notepad. And he looks at me with a death stare. And I'm like, mm, guess I'm not supposed to do that.
But I will say, God bless all of the reporters who can read lips, because I got nothing. And I just-- when it's-- until this day-- like yesterday, I was in Philly for Bucks Sixers. And I just finished my interview with Nick Nurse.
And I'm walking past the Bucks' huddle in their bench. And I'm like, let me stand here and see if I can figure out what Doc's saying. And I think Doc is probably a foot away.
I still can't hear him. I'm thinking, I can't make out what he's saying. I go, this is just-- it's not my strength. It's not my strength. Thank goodness we have cameras in there.
If there was something juicy, they'll do it on like, on All Access. But that has not been my strength. Did you like sideline reporting when you did it?
LISA BYINGTON: I equate-- it's a really hard job. A lot of people--
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Oh, I can do it all.
LISA BYINGTON: Yes-- yeah, I mean, you're talking about play by play, but sideline has its own new different nuances of why it's hard. And I equated sideline reporting to the hamster running in a wheel. You're working so hard, and then you stop, and you look around, and you're in the exact same spot that you started.
And you try to run again, and work hard again, and you look around, and you're in the exact same spot. And it's so-- for sideline reporting, a lot of it depends on the producer who you have, who is comfortable in getting you in the game or not, and how involved you are. And some of it depends on the game too.
You could have this-- prepare for this great report. How many times do you prepare for the great report, and then all of a sudden, this 50-yard touchdown pass is happening. And you have to stop talking and let the play-- because the play is the most important thing. Or an alley-oop dunk that lights the arena on fire.
And so it's like, you just have to adapt and adjust, and you have to realize that you might talk twice a game. You might get eight hits in a game, and nothing is guaranteed. And here's the deal too-- is when you talk to-- now coaches-- like I watched you in the Philly Milwaukee game.
And now you get coaches in between quarters. And it's like the last-- at halftime, definitely, the last thing that they're thinking about and want to do is talk to the reporter. You have to adjust to the different attitudes and answers you might get.
But now, I didn't have to deal with talking to coaches mid-game. So in between quarters, which is like all they're thinking about is getting back to their huddle. So it's just you got to be quick, you got to adjust to any answers. They give you.
And sometimes, they're short, pop, right? And sometimes, they're gracious with their time. But just the adaptability of reporters is something that I found that was really, really tough. You just have to learn that you can talk for 40, or sometimes you got to cut your report down to 15 seconds and be good with it.
LISA BYINGTON: Yeah, it's hard too, because your performance-- the highest part of your performance is often dependent on someone else, which is your post-game interview or whatever-- your coach's interview. You can't predict how they're going to respond, but you can control how you respond and are present in the moment.
And you can prepare as much as you can to making sure you're armed with the proper information and understanding of the player. But it takes reps, it takes time around these people. It takes time reading, all of it. That's this business. It's a privilege to be in this business, but it is a business that we're often working when other people are resting.
LISA BYINGTON: Because that's when sports happen, right? Sports happen at nights and on weekends, and so you have to be ready for that. That's when, you know, you really love your job is when that's OK.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: So taking over in Milwaukee for the lead play by play obviously was historic. But also I'm sure an opportunity to be a part of a league that you've been following your whole life. What's it been like for you being the voice of the Milwaukee Bucks and interactions with guys like Giannis?
LISA BYINGTON: First of all, it's a true honor. I replaced Jim Paschke, who had had that seat for 35 years. And one of the first things I did is call him once I got the job.
I just wanted to get his perspective on the city, on the market, on the franchise, on the team. And I say this all the time. My first conversation with him, he said, Lisa, you have a great seat, and never take that for granted.
And I never do. I always smile right before I pick up the headset, because I just feel so honored. And I never pick up the headset thinking as a female play by play. I pick up the headset feeling honored that I get to be the next voice of the Milwaukee Bucks.
And with such a great franchise, and year in and year out lately, they're contenders to win a championship. You have a generational talent in Giannis, and now you add someone like Damian Lillard, and it's phenomenal. I called a Dame time game-winning bucket right at the buzzer.
And it was amazing. Called Giannis-- 64 points. He set a franchise record. And you take the headset off, and you drive home, and you think, man, what a life. What a great job that I have?
So first and foremost, I never take that for granted. Now, having said that, I understand the responsibility that I have, that someone like Kate Scott with Philadelphia has. Jenny Cavnar, who just recently became a voice of the MLB team.
It's just great to see that there are women out there that are doing-- Beth Mowins nationally. It's just great to see women who are getting these opportunities in spaces where you just don't hear a woman's voice, and being able to do the job that now you're seeing the doors open in other leagues and other sports teams.
And more women-- I can't even-- I love the fact that I think now, it's going to take more than two hands to count how many female play by plays there are across many different networks. And that was just not the case. I grew up like so many great announcers, but a lot of them were white men.
It's fine. There was nothing bad about the way they announced, but that was my role model. So I always say that it's our responsibility to normalize this. So you have-- how old is your child now, Cassidy?
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Five.
LISA BYINGTON: Five. So it's those children, it's those generations of children who are now going to grow up and not think twice, because that's what-- they turn on the TV now, and they could hear a woman's voice, and that's normal to them. That's kind of the goal for me is-- and I'm sure everybody else who has some of these positions and some of these nontraditional roles, is how can we make it normal?
How can we make it what I call background noise? Think of how many times you listen to a game, and you don't think twice because it's two men calling the game. And then I do it too.
If there's a woman calling a football game or a men's basketball game, I stop and think, oh, who's that? And so if we can get to the point where maybe your five-year-old is growing up and is now 18, 19, 20 years old, and all these children who are now growing up and they don't stop or think twice-- like, who's the woman calling the game-- they just think, oh, that's an announcer calling the game-- then that's the progress that we make.
So it's-- I'm honored to be in that position. But if I thought about that day in and day out with all the games that we do, I wouldn't be able to do my job. I understand the responsibility. I don't dwell on it day in and day out, if that makes sense.
LISA BYINGTON: Perfectly. Being a woman in this business, you have to answer a lot about being a woman in the business. But even when I broke into the business, graduated from Northwestern in 2007, I was surrounded by women.
And I grew up watching women. I grew up watching women who are still on the air today thriving. And Pam Oliver was one of my first inspirations as well as Michele Tafoya, and Hannah Storm, and Linda Cohn. But even when getting to ESPN in 2010, I had several female producers. I had several female directors.
I wish I saw more females in the executive offices, but I think that's also the next step. I think also to your point, hearing more play by play, I think goes hand-in-hand with seeing and hearing more analysts. I know you work with a dear friend in Sarah Kustok a lot on college basketball.
One of my best friends, Doris Burke, she is arguably the GOAT, and going to be calling the NBA Finals this year, and couldn't be more proud and happy for her. And I just think, to your point, it's the background noise of it's the norm.
And I think the more women whose experience of seeing women being the norm, that just naturally changes how people feel about women being worthy of these positions. Of course, there's going to always be people who don't like you, but that's this business. That's entertainment.
That's another lesson you need to learn. While Medill is the finest journalism school, a lot of when it comes to sports is about entertainment. And entertainment is subjective. And coverage, even though there's the game, and the rules, and there's the basic understanding of the beginning, the middle, and the end, there's a big performance element to it.
And so I think the biggest advice I can give anyone who's trying to get into sports is to try to not only arm yourself with as much information about the business in itself and your craft, but figure out who you are the most along the way. Because if you're trying to be this carbon copy of what you think is supposed to be on air, it's always going to backfire on you. I think early on in my career, I was trying to be like Ms. ESPN, Ms. Studio.
Like, people would always say I had four different voices, because I think I need to sound a certain way. But I think when I really found my groove is when I leaned into my passion in how I enjoyed covering sports and my viewpoint. And I think some people liked it. Not everybody, but enough people liked it.
That gave me confidence to continue on and explore how I can get more creative in my presentation. And I think that gave me confidence, because I think the biggest part of this job-- there's so many people who want to be in this business, and it's a competitive field. It comes down to when you're working with live sports, it's how you perform in the moment, your poise.
And the only way you can be poised is if you are confident and preparation creates confidence. And I think it was really hard for me early on. I think it's still hard for me. There's so many moments of doubt, but it's how you manage that doubt and how it motivates you. So these are just gems we're dropping, Lisa.
[CHUCKLING]
LISA BYINGTON: Well, you brought up preparation, and I always say that if I felt like, man, do I belong, or am I supposed to be here, I always feel-- I always say preparation is my superpower. If you put in the time, and the research, and the prep-- and live TV is live TV, so you can't prepare for everything you're going to see.
But you can certainly do as much as you can to make yourself feel confident walking into that. And Cassidy, I would also add too for everybody who's listening about just the great preparation that Northwestern gives you.
But they also-- I don't know of any school that prepares you for possible social media critiques and backlash. And each person is different in being able to decide and learn how they want to handle that. And when I started getting some jobs-- NCAA tournament and the Bucks job-- I'll just be open.
I just-- I had talked to a sports psychologist about how do you stay focused? How do you ignore some of the criticism? And I got some great advice, like the little sticky notes that you have that-- the square sticky notes. Not the big ones, but the square sticky notes.
And the advice that I got and some of the teachings was, if you write a bunch of names on this sticky note, and those names don't fit on that sticky note, then it's critiques, and criticism, and feedback that you don't need to pay attention to. There's only a small group of co-workers, friends, family who you need to pay attention to with that.
And it's staying focused. We did an exercise where I had to balance a water bottle on my hand. And I actually wrote down on little sheets of paper criticisms that I'd seen on social media that hurt.
We're all human. So as much as we say, ah, it doesn't matter-- that doesn't bother me-- there's stuff that does because we're human. So I wrote down some things that was hard to see.
And the sports psychologist crumbled up the pieces of paper. And while I had to balance the water bottle, she was throwing the pieces of paper at me. And she said, first, I want you to try to block it with your hand while you're balancing the water bottle. Well, you guys can imagine that that's impossible to do.
I'm trying to block these pieces of paper that are flying at me and balance the water bottle, so the water bottle falls. So then the next drill was, keep your eyes focused on the water bottle, and I'm still going to throw the pieces of paper at you. So picture me balancing a water bottle in my hand, and these little pieces of paper hit me in the forehead, and the cheek, and the shoulder, but the water bottle stayed in my hand.
And so it was just a great visual and a great exercise for me to learn that there's a lot of distractions out there, and social media is one of them. But you have to determine what your focus and what your eyes are on. And that's something that no class, no journalism class can teach you. That's something that real life teaches you, and that's something that you have to figure out-- each individually-- you, being each individual, have to figure out how to handle it.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Yeah, and how much value you're placing on-- you could probably get 50 nice comments and that one critical comment-- how much value you're placing in that. It's a battle. I think this is why I don't envy young people who have grown up with social media their whole lives.
And I look at some of the young players. And even LeBron James who has been in the spotlight in a different way. I grew up, obviously, in the Chicago area. So if we're going to get into the GOAT discussion, Michael Jordan shaped me as a basketball fan.
But when I think about LeBron, and how he's endured this digital social media age with every step of the way, I do not envy these players. You and I are on a very, very small spectrum compared to how much these NBA players are criticized in the spotlight. And this is something that goes back to the poise, is it's such a sliver of difference between some of the talent on that level in terms of the NBA.
But it's really how you handle those moments. And I think that that can also carry over to, you know, being in this business. And part of that is giving yourself grace, and being kind to yourself, and making sure you're saying nice things to yourself.
And I say this out loud, because I have to hear it sometimes. I will pick myself apart for a stumble here or a missed question there. I think some of it motivates me, but I think part of it also can knock me off of my center.
So I think that goes back to making sure you're working on who you are and who you want to be in the business. That's just being an adult. It's finding balance and finding meaning to what you're doing.
We're all struggling. It's like-- we don't-- this is not an Instagram life. It's not just highlights. There's ups and downs, and making sure that you have-- surrounding yourself with the right people. And making decisions to take care of yourself, I think, ultimately, is what really sets yourself-- sets you up for success. That and a degree from Northwestern University.
[CHUCKLING]
LISA BYINGTON: Let me just-- I guess we're broadcasters, so it's like, let me just wrap this up.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Yeah, let's wrap this up. Let's bring it on home.
LISA BYINGTON: Wrap this up. We're getting the wrap sign. Cassidy, when you-- I'm sure you're like me, and you talk to a lot of students-- give advice, what's the biggest-- something that you would like to know when you were that young Evanston Township High school student and thinking about going into journalism or broadcasting? What is something that you would like to know?
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Oh, man. I mean, something I would have liked to know at Northwestern. Gosh. That even when it gets-- that it's going to get easier.
I mean, even if it's harder, it's going to get easier because the thing you think is hard right now, you're going to master that if you just keep going. There's going to be a new challenge ahead of you, but that's the fun of it. That's the fun of the business.
I really think back at like my early years of working four or five jobs at one time, and balancing waking up at 3:00 in the morning and do the traffic reporting into my 9:00 to 5:00 or 9:00 to 7:00 production job, and living life there.
The grind is going to make you, because that work ethic is going to help inspire so many opportunities down the line. And so I guess that would be what I would say, that it's going to pay off and it's going to get easier. I'm not saying that our jobs are easy, but the little things that you're worried about-- standing on Ryan Field trying to get a stand up done, crying because you can't like, you know, get through a 30 second on cam.
LISA BYINGTON: Was that you?
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Yeah. Oh, hell yeah. Multiple times. I'm like, I can't-- why can't I-- because I'm not-- I'm trying to memorize what I'm saying instead of just talking.
And I'm like, I can't do this. And I'm missing my deadline, make the nightly NNN report. And I'm just like, uh. And it's going to get easier, and you're going to look back and realize that that is-- going through those moments is only going to help make you be more of you. So what would you say?
LISA BYINGTON: Man, I was hoping you wouldn't circle back to me. No, [CHUCKLING] I would say that I hope just make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. I think earlier I had said, don't check your watch on how many hours you're working.
Don't check your bank account because there might not be a lot of money there. But check your heart, and check your passion, and make sure that you're doing the job for the right reasons. And, I remember in Lansing, Michigan, I was-- I had to-- back when we had tape to tape sort of machines, and I had to archive what we did for the week.
And it was a Sunday morning, because I was there for that long. I had anchored the 11:00 o'clock local newscast, and then I had to anchor the last week's worth of stuff or had to archive it. And it ended up being like 1:30 AM or 2:00 AM. And it was a February in Michigan, so of course, it had been snowing.
And I walked out, and my car is the only one that's left in the parking lot. And I am just walking out, and I'm thinking, does anybody care of what I just did? I just put in a 12-hour, 13-hour day. Is anybody paying attention, does anybody care?
I don't know if it was like the moonlight, shining on my car or whatever. Just something looked different at that moment when I asked myself that question. And I realized that, Lisa, you care, and it doesn't matter if there's five people watching or 50 people watching. You love this job.
And it was just-- I go back to that moment, because there's-- I wasn't getting paid a whole lot. I was working a lot of hours, but just had the passion for the job. And I knew I was doing it for the right reasons.
So I was frustrated at the time, because I was getting some no's. I wanted to work in bigger markets. And I think I just had decided that I'm not going to let someone else's no be my own no.
And that someday-- there's doors that are closing, but someday, if you do it the right way and you treat people the right way, there's going to be a door that opens for you. And it might be a door that's a job to the Milwaukee Bucks, and being the NBA announcer for an NBA team. So you just got to be patient and do things for the right reasons.
CASSIDY HUBBARTH: Absolutely. Well--
[MUSIC PLAYING]
--it was great to have this conversation with you. I hope those listening found some moments that spoke to them. And Max, thanks for bringing us together.