Dismantling Racism In Your Industry with Lori Hall ’02 and Jessica Lane ’08, ’14 MBA

HELEN KIM: Welcome to Northwestern intersections, where we talk to alumni about how key experiences have propelled them in their life's work. I'm Helen Kim from the Northwestern Alumni Association, and in commemoration of Women's History Month we're featuring alumni trailblazers to celebrate the achievements and aspirations of Northwestern women around the world. You will discover how these women are making an impact in their fields, advancing gender equity and social justice, and pushing the boundaries of the possible.

For the last episode of our women's History Month series, we have Lori Hall and Jessica Lane Alexander with us today. Lori and Jessica are the two co-founders of Pop'N Creative, a Black owned, woman led multicultural marketing collective born out of a deep desire to see brands win marketing took multicultural world. What started out as a small idea and a conversation during their tenure in the entertainment industry, has turned into a successful and empowering collective that is making a change in our community. What's even more admirable is that Pop'N Creative was born a month before the COVID-19 pandemic hit in the United States. Let's take a listen to their story. Lori, Jessica, thank you so much for being here. How are you both doing?

LORI HALL: Great.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: Doing awesome, thank you for having us.

HELEN KIM: Yes, and happy Women's History Month. Oh my gosh.

LORI HALL: We love it, celebrate women, yes.

HELEN KIM: And you two are the perfect guests to have on this show for our Women's History Month series, as two women who started a Black owned, female owned, multicultural marketing agency. So can't wait to hear about it. But I also want to get to know your Northwestern story. So Lori let's start with you. How did you decide to go to Northwestern and what was your experience like?

LORI HALL: So the way I decided to go to Northwestern is actually quite interesting, because Northwestern is such a prestigious school. But when I was going to high school, a private school in Chattanooga called Baylor, I didn't really know which college I wanted to apply to, like I didn't really have an affinity one way or the other.

And so the smartest guy in school was actually the quarterback of the football team, very good looking, quarterback type, but also very, very smart. And I asked him, I said, hey, what school are you applying to? And literally, he told me, I am dying to go to Northwestern, that is my dream school. And so I thought, if it's good enough for him, might as well make that my top school. So I looked up Northwestern, that's literally how I figured out what the school was and what they had to offer, saw the radio TV film program, and I was hooked because I loved entertainment. So that was it.

HELEN KIM: So you wanted to follow the smartest guy in school. I'm sure you were equally as smart.

LORI HALL: Of course I was.

HELEN KIM: Or even smarter.

LORI HALL: Don't look at my transcripts, do not pull my transcripts, but I was of course as smart as he was if not even smarter because I knew to follow the smart guy, right? Like that takes smarts.

HELEN KIM: Absolutely. What about you Jessica, what led you to go to Northwestern?

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: For me was a little different because I actually was a transfer student. So first year I went to Temple University. So the funny story about the switch so at the time like graduating from high school going to college, my parents are basically like, well if you get a full ride or you get like maximum scholarships to school we're going to buy you a new car. So being me, I chose the school that gave me the most money for scholarships so I can get my new car. So I went to Temple University, but I went there and I hated it, like I was there to save the day, I was like, girl I got to go.

LORI HALL: How do you hate somewhere with your best friend, like maybe at least you got a party partner?

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: And I certainly partied, I will say, I partied and still made all fabulous grades, like it was just that. So anyways, definitely after Fall quarter I'm like, OK, this is not going to work. So then I start to look at other schools. And so I was a journalism major, and so I started to look at other journalism schools, and of course Northwestern came up. And so then I decided that was the school I was like, OK, I'll give it one shot. So I'm going to say if I get into Northwestern, which is top school journalism, I'm going to go, if I don't get in, I'm going to sit at Temple and thug it out.

So this was my game plan. So I did that, and it's funny, because I look back and I was like, I was so corny. I wrote my application essay and a lyric from Biggie Smalls was like the opening line of my essay, I thought it was so cool too, because I was like--

HELEN KIM: That is cool.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: So that was my essay to prestigious Northwestern, and I thought I was like so cool. So anyway, so I did that and I actually got in. So I was like well, decision made.

LORI HALL: Apparently it was cool, somebody was probably like--

HELEN KIM: Yeah, it is cool.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: People didn't think I was wack, praise God.

LORI HALL: My essay I was on rock climbing.

HELEN KIM: Well that's also cool.

LORI HALL: You get to higher and higher levels, and you're scared, I was scared of heights. But Biggie Smalls is way cooler. Mine was corny, yours is way cooler.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: But you had deep metaphors, so I going to give you that.

LORI HALL: I was pulling out all the poetry metaphors. And [INAUDIBLE] on my leg and get to the next level I had to reach, I was doing all the things. It both it worked out for both of us though, so that's all that matters.

HELEN KIM: Yes, that's like the moral of the story, right? It worked out for both of you.

LORI HALL: It totally did. A lot of people were like, oh you have to have like a near perfect SAT. I did not, like I figured I could pitch myself as a well-rounded student, I didn't have to be a straight A student. So don't be afraid to apply.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: I agree. Take the leap and apply. And you got to work with the cards you were dealt, as long as you can dress them up the right way, I feel like that's part of making it through life, you just got to package up the best you have, dust it off, shine it up, and present it.

LORI HALL: Amen. I was telling actually my fiancee this, I was like everybody's winging it. Jessica and I have a good chuckle about this all the time. Everybody's winging it, nobody knows exactly what's going to happen.

HELEN KIM: We are all trying to survive in any way. What was your life after your graduation at Northwestern? So like, what did your career path look like, what did you want to do, what were your dreams back then?

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: I'm going to let Lori go first, because this is like my favorite, I tell her all the time, this is my favorite Lori story. Like her transition out of school into the working world is my favorite story. And mine, I'm just letting you know up front, is going to pale in comparison to Lori's. But let's sit, and let's explore Lori's life for just a brief second.

LORI HALL: Look at all that hype, now it's got to be really good.

HELEN KIM: I'm going to mute myself so I don't even.

LORI HALL: Get me all the page, give me the whole floor, I got to crack my knuckles, get ready. So college was going great, I was a strong B student, never wanted to be straight A's because I was like, I want a social life. And senior year I actually had to leave home early because my mom actually got sick. So she had cancer, she's recovering now everybody, so she's great, praise God. But I had to go home and take care of her.

And so funny thing is senior year, I was like, everybody I know is applying to law school. So I was lazy, I'm just going to call it like it is, I was lazy, I did not apply to jobs and everything like that, and I should have. Like there's like a certain time frame you have to apply to jobs when you're a senior in college. I missed that window partying.

And so then all my friends when I asked them I was like, girl, you know I haven't applied for a job I don't even know what I want to do next. I think I want to do advertising. And they all were like, oh no, we're applying for law school, we have everything laid out, we know what we're doing. And I was like, Oh my God. I need to have a plan.

So I pivoted and said, I'm going to apply to law school too. Always follow the smart kids, right? Like it's a theme in my life. And so I applied to law school, got in to DePaul University in Chicago and Vanderbilt Law in Tennessee. So I went home for a year help my mom out, went to law school right after that.

I got to law school and I hated it. Like the whole reason I went is because I wanted to be rich. I was like, OK, all my friends are doing this, everybody is going to come out making six figures at like 25 years old, that sounds like the move. And I went there and while people were mainly pleasant, I mean there are some snotty people in law school sometimes, people are going to be like trying to freak you out like, oh my God my grades are amazing and I know everything is going to happen in my life from now until 50.

And so I was like, wow, that's not me. So I got there and I was like, I like the people OK, but I wasn't passionate about the work. So I stay for a semester, I was miserable. I literally was an RA trying to pay for law school by working on campus and living on campus as a dorm supervisor. Ran to class every day, so I lost some good weight, I was looking really good too.

By the end of the first semester, I went home for Christmas break and I was just done. I was like freaking out, like I just can't do this for 10 years to pay off these law school loans. Because I calculated in my head, it would take $1,000 a month for 10 years to pay off the law school loans I was about to incur. And so I went back a second semester, and I was still miserable.

And so everybody else came back all like, oh break was great, I'm glad, I'm rejuvenated, that was crazy last semester but now I'm ready to start. And I was over here in the corner like, oh I hate this, I really do not want to do this. Went to the dean, dean said, you know what, I'll give you a year off. Won't even make you reapply if you want to come back, just take time. Law school's not going anywhere, like this foundation has been built years and years and decades ago, it'll be here if you want it. And then she said this, if you leave the first week, you'll get all your second semester tuition back.

I was like, oh you could not have seen smoke faster coming out of that office. I split, I was like, oh see you. And it was funny because there was this really smart guy in law school and he asked for the same thing and she said no.

HELEN KIM: Really?

LORI HALL: He had to come back and reapply. Yeah, I don't know why. And I thought he was really good at law school. So I was like why didn't you give him the same deal? I don't know. Don't even care, sorry guy, it worked out for me.

Left law school. Well actually before I left, all the students were like, so what are you going to do? Because I was first year class rep, the students liked me so that was nice, they voted me to be in that position. And when they asked me what am I going to do, I literally had like a brain fart. I was like what? What am I going to do like as in tomorrow, like in a month? I was like I have to have something to do.

So I went back to my room, googled TV internship, saw Turner Broadcasting T3 internships available. And I go back and I'm like, so I'm going to be a T3 trainee at Turner Broadcasting System, TBS. And everybody's like, oh that's great. I had not applied, I had not sent the full resume, I had not done a thing. But I felt like I had to have something, so that was it.

HELEN KIM: Right.

LORI HALL: Fast forward, I get into production because after watching TLC's Say Yes to the Dress one too many times, I was bored. And so I looked up a small production, got on a movie set, and that led to a couple of other productions of which my third was Being Bobby Brown. So, I'm a huge Whitney Houston fan, huge. Sang her song for my senior year speech in high school. And I get to set the first day, and literally they're like we're about to go to IHOP and pick up Whitney so just get in the van. I was like what? We're going where?

HELEN KIM: We're going to go see her.

LORI HALL: We're with Whitney for four months straight, she was lovely. She warmed up to me so much, hugged me often, wanted to only work with me, I have so many stories there. But fast forward, I applied to the Turner Broadcasting thing and I actually got it. I was one out of six people who were awarded the T3 training and there were a hundred people that applied. So just goes to show you, claim it, manifest it, and keep it pushing, because you never know what's going to happen. You just never know.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: So my story is definitely not as much of a roller coaster ride, but it's funny because we have some interesting intersections. So because I was a transfer student, I actually finished school December of 07 and officially graduated June of 2008. So basically when I came back home, well first of all, I felt like other kids who had graduated earlier, I technically was late, but graduated off cycle their parents will let them stay and kick it and have fun basically until they actually graduated. My parents were like absolutely not. You will be finished, you will come home, and you will get a job.

LORI HALL: Right, Black parents unite.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: Because free loading time is over. You're an adult now. I was like, dang I'm a real life adult now, OK. So that was it for Northwestern in Evanston. So basically I packed it up and came home. And I got like numerous temp jobs, and so I feel like I was their favorite temp because not many temp people come from like Northwestern as a graduate, and I'm just literally kind of just buying time. So they put me everywhere. I was in maternal fetal medicine for two weeks, I was in like a print shop for a month where all I did was make 18 punch hole binders for students at Rider University.

LORI HALL: So that was the original real trapper keeper.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: Yes, it was very eventful. But the people were amazing. It's funny, because the characters in some these places were just A1. But anyway, so that was kind of what I did in between time, and then finally through networking and really through my cousin, I call cousin Steve, but he's actually Steve Smith. And he's definitely an ATL executive at the time, he was head of corporate responsibility for CNN.

And so I was telling him that again, my dreams entertainment industry, so I transformed. I wanted to be a hip hop journalist, and then I worked in journalism, I was like, I don't want to be a journalist. Then I guess I transformed this new dream into blue market working in marketing and advertising. And so when I talked to him he said, well OK, come down and just spent a few weeks with me in Atlanta and I'll set you up with some of his colleagues and his friends so I can do informationals.

So I got down there, one of my informationals was actually with Vicky Free, another Northwestern alum, because she graduated Kellogg the executive program I believe. And I spoke with her, and so after speaking with her, I was able to get an internship program.

And then she actually told me about the exact same T3 program that Lori mentioned. So I chatted with her, had a great time, she told me about the T3 program, and she had to do this project. So I did her project, and I remember it was on Everybody Hates Chris.

I had to create this cute little PowerPoint, and I remember sending it in because I wanted to have sound for my PowerPoint. So I wanted to have like this music playing in the back drop of my PowerPoint, so I sent them a little email like please open this with sound, that sort of thing. And so I send it to, guess who I send it to? Vicky Free and Lori Hall.

HELEN KIM: That's how you all connected.

LORI HALL: Yes. You know what now that she tells the story, I totally remember this presentation.

HELEN KIM: You do?

LORI HALL: Yeah. I haven't heard tell it that way.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: So leave it say I present my little PowerPoint presentation and I got the internship. So at the time I got like a temporary internship since I graduated early, that took me up until the actual T3 program started. And then I got into that same program that Lori mentioned, the T3 program.

And so that's when we officially met and started working with one another. I was kind of a new entry level person and that was the start of my career in entertainment, also at TBS and TNT.

LORI HALL: Connected us, yes.

HELEN KIM: You didn't meet at Northwestern. And my next question for you was going to be, how did you all connect? But now that Jessica has told us your first connection to each other, now it makes sense. Could you elaborate more on that? So like how did your internship go? How did you all get to where you two are today at this level of friendship?

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: So I guess I'll give the fast word version but, so Lori was definitely my first manager at a school, so that's kind of how we started.

LORI HALL: I know talent when I see it, that's why. Because I'm like, oh she's good, oh she's excellent. Get the smart people.

HELEN KIM: Yeah.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: Exactly, right? And so basically we both were at TBS and TNT in entertainment marketing, and that's where I started and I that's kind of where Lori started her career in entertainment marketing. For me, I started in marketing, I started kind of looking at marketing from a 360 approach.

But at the advent of social media and digital and social kind of extensions, and the fact that quickly we were moving from a marketing space that was not just on air ads, radio, out of home, but increasingly focused on social media and making sure that we can have conversations about television shows on social media. I leaned in, I was like, I like this, I'm excited by this, so let me try to figure out if I need to turn this into not just fun and games and Facebook and really kind of strategies to drive business goals. What does that look like? How can I play into that? How can I build out marketing campaigns with digital and social at the focus?

And so the great part is, at the time, everyone wants to always work on the splashy stuff. So people want to work on air spots, outdoor. I was like, that's cool and I can't compete with the people who are five, six years in the game, working on all the big splashy stuff. So I'm going to take this little small thing that no one really cares about, and people make sure, you have some time, go ahead figure it out.

So I'm like, OK, that's what I'm going to do. So I took the time, I was like I'm going to play it here, I'm going to figure it out. Luckily, I bet in the right direction because as time started to go on, it started to become bigger and bigger and bigger and the other kind of platform started to become smaller and smaller. And so then luckily I strategically placed myself in an area that was growing, in that area that I started to positioned myself as an expert. And people come to me like, oh what should we do? How should we do this?

And even like the great part towards the end of my career at TBS and TNT, how should we structure teams to better support digital and social platforms within entertainment marketing, specifically television marketing. So the great part I was able to not only work on great things, but also kind of work with our SEP who kind of was trying to restructure the team to say OK, this is kind of how it could look if we're structuring our new teams to make sure social is kind of at the forefront. As social is kind of a key priority for all of our campaigns.

LORI HALL: Right. So what Jessica is not saying is she basically was at the forefront and drove having digital specialist at Turner Broadcasting. And we were a kick ass women's team, honestly that senior vice president was a strong woman in an amazing market or still is. Vicky Free, that's our girl, that is my girlfriend, mentor, like she is just dynamic. She's over at Adidas now running their global marketing.

Tricia is at Warner Media running their young adults division and things like that. So multiple networks, she was a Freeform before that. So it was really a special time at TBS and TNT when we were there. And it was so unique, it kind of created a sorority/fraternity of the people that were there at the time we were, because we were just all so close knit. We were like running and gunning on marketing campaigns. Our fearless leader in Tricia was always giving us all the room we needed to be great, while still pushing us to do even more. And it was just a special, unique time.

And it's funny, because I talked to Tricia not too long ago, and I was raving about our time at TBS and TNT. She's been a big supporter of pop at our agency. And she was like, everybody's doing well. And I was like, I know everybody's at different networks, heading different marketing departments. And she said, you know what, it was like an accelerated MBA program. That's what it was, we all got our chops, we all like sharpened each other as we went through at TBS and TNT, and it was a great place to cut your teeth at that time.

HELEN KIM: Smart people attract smart people.

LORI HALL: Look here, that's what I'm talking about. But not only that, I will say there is this amazing boomerang effect. Like when you are great to people and you do great work with great people, that halo effect will come back to help you later in life and you just don't know how to do that yet, right? So we were all at TBS and TNT, fast forward Jessica went on to be school at Kellogg, I went on to other networks, Jessica and I reconnected at TV One where we worked together and she led the entire digital social department there while I oversaw marketing as a whole.

And then now that we're in our agency, all those people we work with have been hiring us to do great work for them. So it's continuing to rise together. And I love that, and a lot of the people from Turner, from TBS, TNT who are hiring us are women. We do have some men also who are hiring us from our previous life, at TBS, TNT and other places, but I just have to say because it's Women's History Month, shout out to the dynamic women who always reach out to other dynamic women.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: Us included.

LORI HALL: And make sure that we support each other. And also shout out to the men who are supporting us too. We have great clients at TBS and TNT now with Missy Chambless and [INAUDIBLE] and you know just a lot of other people, Gabby Ballard, Shaquia. What I want to say is, we have such a great network of people that we just don't take it for granted. And we are so thankful that these relationships have been built and have stayed strong all these years. It's been a blessing.

HELEN KIM: I think one of the biggest lesson I learned in the workforce is that you need to make good connections, treat everyone nicely and you never know when else you're going to meet that person. Even if you go to a networking event and you just say hello to this one person, that person could be your future manager one day somehow, and they'll remember all the interaction.

LORI HALL: Do great work, never let your desire for excellence slip. And I think people remember it when you have a great work ethic and you're also great to work with. Because I tell you what, there are some people who are amazing masterminds, who are crappy to work with. And those are not the people that you refer business to or try to work with in the future. So it's a two step process in terms of not only having great work, but being a great person to work with.

HELEN KIM: You got that right. So let's talk about your agency Pop'N Creative. What a name, love it. So tell us the beginning of the creation of the agency, and what got you all to start one?

LORI HALL: Jessica did, OK hi Jess.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: So I could tell you a little bit about the very, very start and then when we actually started. So it's funny because, I don't know how much Lori remembers, but even back when we were at TBS and TNT I used to tell that I was like, you know what Lori I think we could do this, like I think that we employed lots of agencies. And I was like, I think that we could start our own agency, I really think we could this.

And of course you know naiveté and Lori was like yeah, OK. And I'm like no, quote me, I think we can really do. This so needless to say, we didn't do it at that time.

LORI HALL: I was like that's cute girl, that's a prank. We got all these budgets and we're working with all these celebrities, that's cute though.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: So fast forward several years later when we get back to TV One, I bring it up again. So similarly, at TV One it is a Black focused entertainment network, and one of our missions, really Lori's mission and then I kind of jumped on to it is, we have to make sure that we find diverse candidates for agencies. So agencies that are Black owned, agencies that are women led, agencies that are just kind of not off the beaten path, but just different from mainstream. And that should be a goal to make sure that we're giving invoices, money, budgets to agencies that you might not expect.

And so as we talked about this, we were like, but where are the agencies? So we would consistently come up short like, oh we have one here and one here, and we just saw that there was this huge white space where we needed to have more agencies of color and more agencies run by women entering this space. So I bring it up again, so ding ding ding, oh we don't have enough? I guess we should create this Lori, I think you should do this, I think that we can do this. And so, of course, you know you just plant the seed, plant the money.

LORI HALL: The mastermind.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: Just keep coming back to it. And so after a while then I was like I think that we should really start this. And so we talked about it, had conversations, and then it was a great time because at the end of I think this was 2019 my husband actually got a new job in Atlanta. And so we live in DC at the time, and so because he got relocated to Atlanta I also needed to relocate to Atlanta. And I was coming up short in terms of actual job opportunities in Atlanta that I was excited about.

And so then I started to say, well, if I'm not excited about the job opportunities that I see, maybe I should start to create my own job opportunity. So then I'm like OK, let's bring this, shake this out, let's bring this right back into being, let's start our own agency. And it just so happened at the same time, I was also trying to pitch to potentially stay at TV One and work remote. And then that didn't happen, they were like no, we're not ready to really have a person who's leading a department work remotely.

LORI HALL: Ah ha COVID.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: Right? But COVID, so now everybody working remote. But at the time I was like, dang, I have to separate from this but in hindsight, it was really such an opportunity and such a blessing.

Because that door closed, the door to Pop'N Creative really opened. And so that allowed me to lean in and start the idea that we had start to really put some weight behind it and really start to explore it. How can we create this on our own, and how can we start this and really turn it into a revenue generating business to replace our previous salaries.

Because that's real, we're up here, we have these beautiful salaries. It's like the golden handcuffs, if you don't want to you don't want to give it up. That's kind of how we had the start of it. And then we officially kind of launched February for me and then I let Lori share how she joined the force come April.

LORI HALL: Yes, yes, yes. So, Jessica and I, like she said, she was the seed dropper, she was the seed planter and I was tied by the golden handcuffs. I was sitting in a pretty nice position at TV One and leading a department of 18 with a creative services and marketing team. So I had producers, editors designers, brand people, digital social with Jess. And it was great, but I had been there for five years and so I was looking for new creative challenge.

The company was great, but they were trying to conserve in a time where a lot of companies were trying to conserve budgets. And marketing is always a cost center, so you always have to spend money. So it just becomes a challenge to be as creative as you want to be when there's not enough budget to do that for business purposes rightfully so.

And so when Jessica had to move to Atlanta and relocate with her husband, we just knew it was the right time. And so it was a lot of weekends, a lot of planning, a lot of discussions. And we built Pop'N from the ground up. And it's funny because I was kind of tied to my paycheck because I just hadn't not had a paycheck, if that makes sense. I had never been without a paycheck, not since I was 22 quitting law school.

And so that was a little frightening. And it hard, because I felt like I was in this tug of war with myself. Do I stay for the paycheck even though I don't feel as creatively challenged or do I go, take a risk, bet on myself and Jess, and see what happens even though I can't guarantee that money will be there?

And it's funny, because actually Jess I don't know if I ever told you this. I talked to my financial planner and he said, let me tell you something, any job you work in it's like working for yourself because every two weeks they can fire. So you might as well bet on yourself. Working at a corporate job is not job security, they can let you go for any reason especially at will state. So you have no guarantee beyond the two weeks that you're going to get your paycheck in the next two weeks.

So he's like, what's the problem? He's like I've been in business for myself for 30 something years, always bet on yourself. And so that kind of rung in my ears, then Jessica seed planting rung in my ear. And I was still there playing tug of war with myself, and I feel like God was trying to tell me like move, do it. And my mom was telling me to do it, everybody.

We had planned it, we had built it together, but Jessica was able to start with it first. And fast forward a couple of months, COVID happens in 2020 and then they had to have layoffs at the company. And so I was impacted by that. And it actually became the biggest blessing of my life.

Because as soon as they called me, it's a weird feeling to have that call, but at the same time I was literally able to turn to the right and walked right into the doors of Pop'N, if you will. So literally there was a seamless transition, one door closed literally and Pop'N's doors were wide open, and we were able to do it fully together. So we've been doing this since early 2020, and it has been an amazing ride.

We're figuring things out, but what's great is that we've put together a band of amazing creative people on our squad and so we've grown pretty quickly. Our accountant is very happy with where we are, which makes us very happy with where we are. And we're always looking to better help other companies, other brands, do what they need to do in terms of multicultural marketing.

And so it's been pretty awesome, because I will say, a lot of our work comes from word of mouth. And so that's truly just a satisfying thing to know that people refer you. Because I think that's the best gift anybody can give you, is just to refer you based on their experience.

HELEN KIM: You take a risk when you start a business or you start a new company on your own, especially if you had incoming paycheck every month. And you're like, I'm letting this go, but there is this opportunity that I'm actually very interested in and I'm passionate about. So very valid for you to feel like it's frightening. And this started literally at the beginning of COVID last year in 2020. How are you feeling as this was happening? And it was so unexpected.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: I must say it was nuts, but I feel like Lori has coined this term though now, we now call ourselves the pandemic-preneurs We had an idea, and we built it throughout the pandemic. But it was definitely tough and it was definitely scary, because this is really unprecedented times, both from the sense of a worldwide pandemic and just for the sake of like the racial reckoning that's happen at the exact same time with the pandemic. So both things are impacting us equally, if I must say.

And so when we started we were really nervous. We were like, OK, we have this great idea, we got we finally get enough excitement enough like gumption to do it, and now the world is falling apart. And people are like snatching budgets, and laying off people. And that sort of thing. And again, you had to just bet on yourself. You just have to put the priorities in front of you and just say OK, this is what we're going to do, we're going to weather this storm, and we're going to keep being creative, and keep kind of walking that path that is clearly telling us we need to walk down. So we just need to survive this moment.

And so for us that kind of looked like, we definitely we lost clients, we definitely lost business in the short term. But luckily we're small enough that we can totally weather it. But that gave us an opportunity to have a different conversation in the space. And so when George Floyd died at the hands of the police, and we saw what was really happening around ourselves, we said, you know what, we don't protest, we're not really activists, but we do have something to say and we have something to offer this conversation, this larger conversation about breaking down racial discrimination.

And so what we did was we created this almost like this was our kind of volunteer of service and we created this brand guide to help brands understand how to dismantle racism within their corporate structures based on what was happening in the conversation. Because everybody, every brand, literally every brand and their mom were like Black Lives Matter. Look at our creative, it is Black and white to show you that Black Lives Matter.

And there was just so much more that we could be having in this conversation besides just showing a pretty picture or an interesting thought provoking picture on social media. And so we stepped into that and basically broke down how brands should be approaching this conversation and how brands should not just talk about the fact that Black Lives Matter, but they should be dismantling things and structures within their corporate organizations to really show people how much they feel that Black Lives Matter. So you shouldn't be having this message, but then you have boards between leadership teams that have diversity problems. That's what you need to be tackling right alongside posting these messages.

So we got an opportunity to have that conversation and just push that out there to say, hey, this is how you approach it, this is how you should do this, and these are the things that you should check amongst yourself. And question to make sure that you have a really strong action plan that feels authentic and kind of on key with the conversation that people are having. So we did that just because we were passionate and didn't have a lot of jobs, and wanted to push our energy into something.

And so luckily that white paper, and we put it out there for free, we are trying to charge anyone. But we put it out there and that became one of the stronger marketing materials for Pop'N Creative. Because people just started to ask us about it, because we just posted it and put it out there was like, we want to do this and we're going to try to share it with some folks and say, hey, if you need help pushing these certain agendas and these conversations internally at your corporate organizations, try this.

And then people started to really pass it along and share it. And we were kind of surprised, because random people would reach out and say, so I saw your action guide. And we're like, what?

LORI HALL: Yes. Oh you did?

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: And then they would ask us questions. And they were like, oh I know you all are focusing on the DEI space, do you do creative? I was like well actually we are creatives, we did this just because we are passionate about it and we had something to say and we didn't want to hold it back. That became an interesting conversation piece as we're talking about and trying to push the message that we, as a community, as a corporate environment, as entertainment marketing space, just need to do better in terms of breaking down these racial discriminations and the structures that we have in corporate environments that prevent beautiful, brown, talented people from getting to the top.

LORI HALL: Absolutely. What you said.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: I fee like that's kind of how we got our momentum and got our kind of excitement back throughout the pandemic. It was kind of conversations like that, messaging like that, and talking to people about stuff that we were super passionate about that really got us to make sure that we did not just take the pandemic and sit down and be upset and disappointed that this is our exciting moment and it can't happen. We were just like, you know what, we're just going to keep pushing through it. We're going to keep pushing through it.

LORI HALL: And it ended up being like a whole different part of our business like Jessica said. People started hitting us up asking us to do diversity, equity, and inclusion training. So now that's something that we definitely offer as a service.

We will go in, we will customize a presentation based on someone's industry or based on the challenges are having, and we will identify ways to do it right and ways to avoid doing it wrong. We'll go through very specific and very nuanced examples. Because that's what it is to be a multicultural marketer, you have to spot nuance, you have to understand what the culture feels and how they will interpret something, not just what's on the page.

HELEN KIM: Right. And I love that that's one of the services that you offer. Because I think a lot of marketing agencies could have their own pitfalls of not being able to notice those nuances, and campaigns that are not suitable for the multicultural community that we live in America. And do I dare ask this, what are some common mistakes that you've seen in marketing agencies that they make?

LORI HALL: Not having Black people in the room when you're making decisions or multicultural people overall. If you're targeting an Asian-American audience, then you don't have anybody that's Asian-American and not just one, but multiple people, because no one race or ethnicity is a monolith. You don't have multiple people of different ages, different backgrounds, in the room to help you consider that piece of creative? That's a miss. If you don't have the same thing for any other race, ethnicity, generation, whatever. I see this one often, I know Jessica does. You're doing a Gen Z campaign and everybody deciding that campaign is like 50 plus.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: That ain't it.

LORI HALL: That's not good. I don't care if you've read the research over and over. You need to have real people from that generation to weigh in on what you're doing. And it shouldn't be something where you always have to outsource it, you should look to diversify your team and have the audience is represented internally that you are trying to profit off of or market to externally. It only makes sense.

For example, this Black History Month you know we have we've been running some great campaigns, we created some great campaigns for some clients. We've also been in discussions with potential clients who were trying to figure out what they should do for Black History Month, should they do anything, how do their numbers look internally in terms of diverse employees, et cetera.

And what we've learned is that a lot of companies wanted to do these fantastic Black History Month campaigns and they sought us out because they didn't have one Black person on their squad, like not one. In a major companies, these are not small companies, these are not Mom and Pops, these are like major companies that if we said them by name you would be like, oh my gosh. So I think that just shines a spotlight on how people can adjust and start to better identify those gaps in their internal practices, so that their external marketing reflects the diversity that it should be there, basically.

So I think that's one major thing. And I think the other one is just using devices like nooses, like gardening if you're doing something with a Mexican-American person. Using devices that are stereotypical to try to market to that same audience. I think that is the biggest blunder, like I just can't even believe it happened to me and Jessica when we saw some creative like that.

I saw a creative that had a Twizzler noose. And you're like, I don't care if sugary sweets are her death, a noose is not the appropriate device to use ever. Same thing with Jess, we're working on a late night show with a Mexican-American host, and someone pitched the poster to be him trimming hedges in a garden bush. And it's like, are you guys insane?

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: And it's just lazy.

LORI HALL: And we've had to speak up in those instances, and luckily we work somewhere where we were very supported from the top, and they listen to everybody's opinions not just the senior leaders but everyone's no matter what position you were, so we were fortunate. But there are a lot of companies where they don't give weight to certain people's opinions, whether it's young people, Black people, old people, Asian people, it doesn't matter. Sometimes in certain companies they only give weight to people's opinions if they feel like they're on their level or if they actually have a big stake in the business. And I don't think that's the right approach.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: But honestly, I will say Lori took my answer, I was going to say the same thing just not having enough diverse candidates in the room. I think that's really important for us. And that even at our agency, we strive to make sure that we have different perspectives even though we're Black owned agency we don't want to just employ Black people and say, oh, this is the way that we can talk to multicultural audiences.

We want to still have an understanding of the entire landscape, because culture is created in multiple different pockets across the social scape. And if you don't have people who know or heard of these different pockets, you're losing out, you're missing out on what is happening in some of these conversations and trends as they're brewing. And our goal is always to stay on top of what's happening in the trends that we're seeing, and you can't do that if you have all the same people on the team. Let alone checking the bad stereotypes, because I feel like we were talking about stereotypes being lazy.

I feel like especially when you start to step into more comedy and comedic stuff, like stereotypes become the easy device to get a laugh or to get a chuckle. It's just so lazy, we could do much better than that. Creativity and comedy can do better than just the same stereotypes that we traffic each and every year for decades, really for sometimes centuries. So I just think we get to do better as an industry.

LORI HALL: Yeah. And I also think that it's OK if you don't have the diversity reflected on your team now that you want or in your company now, but you have to create a path to getting there. You have to create goals, you have to push to get there. Like we are always going to want to add more diversity to our team in so many different regards, because there's just so much beautiful diversity in the world.

So I don't think we'll ever be satiates in terms of oh, now we've hit the mark, now we've got every kind of person. Because it's also diversity of experience, but I mean you can obviously cover off on the easy ones race, ethnicity, age et cetera, gender, binary, non-binary. You can find some ways to create a path to say you know what, I need to purposely seek out someone or multiple people in this group because we don't have that yet. So just create the path and then create real measurable goals to try to get there. Push yourself to make sure that you hire somebody by the end of the year that's going to reflect where you want to grow to in terms of your diversity.

HELEN KIM: And I think a lot of the times the burden kind of falls on that one person of color in the room. A lot of people think that they are the representative of their entire race and whatever ethnicity that they identify with. And that's so not true, like there's so much diversity within each race. That's a lot to take in for one person.

LORI HALL: It's a lot. Well I have a question for you, it's like I've seen a lot of people in the Black community especially saying end racism, support Asians too and Asian-Americans, like have you dealt with that in terms of being in certain situations or rooms? Have you ever experienced anything like that?

HELEN KIM: Oh yeah, definitely. And especially due to the anti Asian violence that's been taking place all over the United States, especially on our elderly community. It's been really difficult for me to take that in.

But a lot of the times in workplace, and I'm truly not saying that's how that I've experienced it at my current work, because I do work with a very supportive team who really advocates for me. But a lot of the Asian-American communities like in the workforce, we are seen as the quiet ones, we are seen as the silent ones, and like our voices are not heard. We're invisible basically. So it hurts us especially in meetings or like big group settings where we're not asked to have a seat at the table at all.

LORI HALL: Crazy, exactly. You have people in the room who would speak up but you're not empowering them to have a voice. That's also part of the problem.

HELEN KIM: Right and there is just, yeah. I mean we're here to support each other, we're here to work together to fight against white supremacy, but it is actually sometimes doing the opposite and breaking us apart and just having us pinned against each other. And I'm like no, I'm like that's not it, that's not the point. We're here to work together. Yeah.

All right, we can go on and on about this. And I guess another question that I wanted to ask you both is, in marketing agencies there can be examples of a lot of tone deaf pitches or the lack of cultural nuances, but that could happen in any industry. So how can one act as an activist and dismantle racism within their own industry?

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: Yeah that's a good point. And I feel like it starts with discussions like this that are happening all across America right now for corporate America. But honestly, I've kind of been inspired by of course you have the activist side, but I've been inspired by some of the stories even as we hear people, I'm going to talk a lot about the entertainment industry because that's the kind of space that we're most familiar with, but even people just saying no or that's not enough.

I've actually been really impressed, it's like when I think of this, I think of people like the story you hear about Shonda Rhimes. How she was just upset in terms of her treatment at ABC, and she just said that's just not enough, you will not treat me this way. And there's a certain amount of activism and a certain amount of checking people that happens that benefits all of us and benefits people of color, that benefits women.

And it's funny because I remember another journalist, Demetria Lucas, she wrote this post where she was like every time I see an article about how Bridgerton has broke some records at Netflix, I chuckle that Disney basically let her walk out the door because they didn't give her an extra pass to the Disney parks. Like that is the thing that broke the camel's back that let you basically lose Bridgerton was because you didn't give this woman a pass to Disney, and it was free to you. So it's like sometimes it's that simple.

LORI HALL: Because there were probably other things, but something about signals, right? Signals. So to me, if I'm bringing you all this money and doing all these shows, Shondaland, TJIT, et cetera, and I ask you for something that I know is an easy thing in your discretion, and just say all right, and you don't, that's a signal. That means you don't give a flying f about me. Because it doesn't cost you that much, like she wasn't asking to shut down Disney World for a day. That you might want to say no to, she was asking for a pass. That's a signal.

And I think that for multicultural people, I'm sorry I didn't mean to cut you off Jess, for people of color, I feel like we are so used to seeing those signals throughout our lives and throughout our careers that those things build up and at some point that last signal might be the straw that broke the camel's back. That's the one, you all are going to see it as a pass to Disney, I'm going to see it as you just don't care about me and don't care that I'm bringing you millions and billions of dollars. So much so that you're going to deny me a pass. That's a signal.

So I think that these signals rack up, and I think that's what non people of color, white people, should think about when you're interacting with people of color. Like we are sensing these signals. It's not about what you say all the time, sometimes it's about what you do. Sometimes about the things you don't say, and we read those signals too.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: And the only thing I will add is just that when we see those signals, I feel like up until this point most people just swallow it. They know that as a person of color, they think I'm lucky to be here, this is my opportunity, this is my shot. And so I think there's something very activist in this language is saying, no, that's not good enough, I'm not going to swallow this micro or macro aggression that you have. I'm going to say this is not acceptable, I am moving on. I'm getting up from the table, I'm finished here.

LORI HALL: Now mind you, Shonda is at a certain level where she can walk and take all her millions and potential billions with her. So she can say no. Someone who's a writer on a series, let's say a black-ish on ABC or any other series, doesn't have to be ABC or Disney, but someone who's a writer might not be able to afford to walk out the door. You have a sweet job, you have a great company that you're working with, you might not be able to say no in the moment that a macro or microaggression happens because you have to balance that with but I really like this job and I'm getting good pay.

And that's a tough thing to have to balance all the time that I feel like unless you're a person of color or some other ostracized entity, it doesn't always be a person of color, it can be sexual preference, it can be women, it can be anybody. But unless you've been ostracized, you might not know how that feels to have to balance that 24/7. We all hope we can get to the Shondaland level where we can just say, you know what, you're crazy, bye, going somewhere better.

But the reality of the matter is, a lot of people are not at that level and will not be able to afford those kinds of sacrifices in the hopes that something else works out. And so those are the people we also have to be very mindful of in terms of how can we improve internal functions, internal systems, internal departments, internal collaborations, for the better. For those people who can't afford to just drop the mic and walk out the door because that would be such a serious implication to their lives.

That's what I'm passionate about, let's improve life for everyone in the middle, everybody in the middle. The people at the top are going to be straight, they've had to bust through glass ceilings, wood ceilings, metal ceilings, they've had to bust through all of it. And we feel like we're busting through ceilings as well, but for everybody in the middle, the people who sometimes might feel like they're forgotten about, like we should be working hard, and that means everybody, regardless of race, ethnicity, age, whatever. We should be helping for everyone in the middle, the people who are struggling. And I know that people at the bottom are struggling too, but I really do feel like start where you can, but let's not forget those in the middle as well.

HELEN KIM: Yeah amplify their voices and support them, their work.

LORI HALL: You can tell how passionate we are about this.

HELEN KIM: And then as we dedicate International Women's Day and Women's History Month in March to all of our female ancestors and role models who've worked so hard to help us get to where we are, not saying that we don't have any more work to do, there's a lot more to do. But, while thinking about that, what does Women's History Month mean to you both?

LORI HALL: That's big. I'm just thankful to be a woman. I'm thankful to be a Black woman, straight up. I'm very honored that God and the universe chose me to be a Black woman. And I just hope and pray that one day we get to a place where people are not seen as other, but we're seen as a beautiful diverse rainbow spectrum of folks. Like I want our trans sisters to be heralded just as equally as people who are biologically cis gendered. I want there to be equality for women overall.

And I'm definitely going to be one of the loudest, strongest, supporters of Black women as a Black woman myself, but it's really for women everywhere because I feel like we are in an amazing streak right now. And it doesn't mean that we've reached the hilltop, because we haven't, but we have our first Black female VP, we have women who are driving change, we have Stacey Abrams who drove almost a million people to vote. We have women breaking glass ceilings everywhere, Vicky Free who we talked about, being the global leader of the marketing group at Adidas.

We are seeing such huge strides, and I want us to keep pushing. But I also want us to take care of each other in terms of balancing all of the successes, all the drive, all the growth, with feeling balanced and peaceful in the inside. Like mental health wise, like feeling peaceful and safe and like you can handle all of it together. And sometimes you just can't handle it, and that's OK too. But making sure that we take the steps to take care of our inner self.

And there's a thing that Tina Lifford, she coined the term called inner fitness and it's about exercising inner fitness in mental health and peace and balance on the inside just as much as you do it on the outside. And I think that's a beautiful thing to aspire to as well, especially for women. So that's what it means to me. Take care of each other, inside and out.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: I love that. OK so women's history for me. There's one kind of saying that I feel always makes me excited for women. I mean it starts in Black History Month, and I feel like then it continues into Women's History Month, and there's this idea that we are our ancestor's wildest dreams. In a sense that we have opportunities, we've had battles, new battles even to fight, that our ancestors could have only dreamed about. And so this idea that sometimes that fear from doing something different, fear from doing something new, fear from retributions of your actions, can sometimes stop us.

And so I just always think about the fear that our ancestors had were literally like life and death scenarios. So it's kind of like how dare we be fearful to speak up or challenge someone to say that this is not acceptable when the repercussions are what, I going to dock my pay, I might lose my job, but I will have my life and I have all of the intelligence that we have already to keep moving forward. So sometimes the battles just don't even compare, so sometimes I just have to think about just being able to kind of put that fear aside or channel that fear into something different to kind of overcome. Just because we are the things that our ancestors dreamed of, and it's on us, and it's our responsibility to play that card the right way and to make sure that we push forward.

LORI HALL: Yes absolutely, love that.

HELEN KIM: Yeah, such an exciting month in March, lots to celebrate, lots to think about. And as we close, what is one advice that you would like to share with the Northwestern community?

LORI HALL: The Northwestern community, I would say, take a chance because we're all winging it.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: Such great advice.

HELEN KIM: Going back to what we talked about before at the beginning.

LORI HALL: I think the biggest thing that can hold you back is fear of the unknown or fear of making a misstep, fear of not being sure what the other side holds. But who cares? Life is short, take a chance. Think about it, plan for it, but take a chance.

JESSICA LANE ALEXANDER: For me, one advice that I have for the Northwestern community I would say is really use your community. I feel we always get taught that we're supposed to network, and really the conversation is network up. But I feel like when you graduate from a school such as Northwestern, you look around and these are like the smartest kids in the class all across the country. So use your network, use a person to the right and left of you to have conversations and to network with each other and to help each other and support each other as you had these goals, initiatives, and even these big dreams that you have. An entrepreneur dream, you want to do something big that's never been done, you can use your resources and your network around you to kind of support that. So they're just as important as networking up to the CEOs or SVPs or whatever you want to call them.

HELEN KIM: Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of Northwestern Intersections. For more information about our podcasts, please visit northwestern.edu/intersections. Until next time, stay safe and take care of yourself and your families.