Northwestern University Alumni

Transcript

[MUSIC PLAYING] INTERVIEWER: Welcome back to Northwestern Intersections, a Northwestern Alumni Association podcast. We'll be talking to guests about their career paths and the lessons they've learned along the way. Our guest today is Julie Kliegman, sportswriter, author, and copy chief at Sports Illustrated. 

Much of her work revolves around increasing coverage of important topics in sports and entertainment, including mental health care and gender. She brings a wealth of professional experience, exploring important issues in sports and society. And her new book, Mind Game-- An Inside Look at the Mental Health Playbook of Elite Athletes, is due out in March 2024. We will dive into all these topics and more in this edition of Northwestern Intersections. Julie Kliegman, thank you so much for joining us. 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: Thank you for having me, Max. 

INTERVIEWER: Absolutely. So let's look back at your time at Northwestern. What brought you to Evanston, and what did you study in college? 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: I studied journalism and Spanish. And the journalism is what really brought me to Evanston. I had some experience working for both my high school paper and working for my local newspaper in the afternoons and on weekends. So I knew all the way that I wanted to do journalism. And I came to realize that Northwestern was one of the best places to do it. 

INTERVIEWER: And right when you were getting out of college, what was your first job? And how did that come about? 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: I got a job-- PolitiFact, which was then part of the Tampa Bay Times. So I moved to St. Petersburg, Florida. And my role was fact checking things that politicians on both sides of the aisle said and informing readers about where they exaggerated, where it was completely false, where they were actually right, for a change. 

And I got that through a on-campus event at Northwestern, where one of the hiring managers was actually doing interviews with people on campus. So that's how it came together. It was perfect. I found out about it not long before graduation day. So it all just came into place. 

INTERVIEWER: And when you took that job, were you already thinking about being a career writer, or were you thinking, let's just see where this takes me? 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: I was definitely thinking about being a career writer. I've always loved writing since I was growing up. And don't take it for granted. I know how difficult it is to find jobs in writing and in editing. But it was definitely always the goal to do it for as long as I can do it. 

INTERVIEWER: For sure. And what brought you to sportswriting, in particular? Talk to me about how you ended up in your current role. 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: Yeah. So I would say that it was a bit of a circuitous route because, as I told you, I started in politics. Politics was never the dream for me, but I think it was a really good experience. So I think I ended up in sports in part because I've just been a lifelong fan of many sports. 

And I never thought it would necessarily be a huge part of my career. But it turned out that way when I got a job as a copy editor and writer at The Ringer, Bill Simmons's site, in 2016. And from there, it was kind of a natural jump to Sports Illustrated. 

INTERVIEWER: You touch on so many important issues in your writing. This is a very short laundry list-- mental health, equal pay, trans rights, increasing visibility and awareness of asexuality, increasing coverage of women's sports. Like I said, that's just to name a few. What motivates you to cover those topics? And how do you go about finding a story and pursuing it? 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: So the topics you just listed, I basically have some sort of personal connection to all of them, which I think is not necessary for journalists to have. But I do find, in certain situations, it helps. Stuff I'm wondering about, if I can't easily Google it, then I want someone else to be able to Google it and find something informative on the subject. So it's really just about, what do I care about? What do I think is interesting about that, and what will other people care about? 

INTERVIEWER: Are there any subjects or topics that you haven't written about that you're looking to explore more in the near future? 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: That's a good question. I don't know if there's one specific thing. But I'm open to anything. I'm open to writing about sports I don't usually cover. I'm open to writing about political issues I don't usually cover, different forms of entertainment, different queer identities. So there's a whole host of things I'm open to covering. I think the important thing is just that I'd have some natural curiosity about it. 

INTERVIEWER: So obviously, as a writer, you're falling within a wonderful fall slate of other alumni authors and writers as part of our promotion for the Northwestern catalog, a Northwestern alumni author database. And I've asked a lot of our authors who have written about a ton of different topics. How do you stay on your toes for writing about what seems like a million different topics in such a short career? You're a pretty recent graduate. How do you stay prepared to talk about all those different topics? 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: Yeah, it's really hard, especially as it gets harder to find credible news sources, due to search getting a little bit worse, due to X or Twitter becoming much harder to use. It becomes harder and harder to stay informed and stay up to date on everything. 

But I think it's just about keeping in touch with your network. And I don't only mean your professional network and your sources. I also mean, like, what are your friends wondering about? What is your family asking you about? So I think it's just really keeping an open mind to different subjects and listening to what the people around you think is newsworthy. 

INTERVIEWER: What makes a great story? How do you evaluate your own work, and how do you evaluate the work of others? 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: I think it's just like, are you writing something that can challenge readers without condescending to them? Are you writing something that could have an impact? And traditionally, we mean impact on legislation or a public person's position on something. But I think it can be much broader than that. I mean, this is so cheesy. But I think if you touch one writer-- or one reader, rather, I think, in some ways, you've done your job effectively. 

INTERVIEWER: What's the most rewarding part of getting that feedback? Do you feel almost like a personal commitment to the work when people are reaching out and saying, hey, I didn't know about this things like that? 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: Yeah. I think those notes really are the most rewarding part. And they make up for the weird hate mail that you get. Because they're so sincere. And people are so genuinely happy to have found something that they can connect to you, that they think informs them, that explains another viewpoint, that challenges their own viewpoint. 

INTERVIEWER: Absolutely. And can you think of a proudest ow moment as a writer or a specific article that really stuck out to you as, wow, this one really made an impact? 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: For me, it's hard to pick just one. But one that comes to mind pretty quickly is the article I did for Sports Illustrated at the beginning of 2022 about trans boys and men in sports. Because a lot of the discussion around the laws are focused pretty squarely on trans girls and women. And when say the laws, I mean the bans that different states propose and often pass prohibiting trans girls and women and in some cases, trans boys and men, from participating in publicly-funded school sports in the gender they identify with. 

So I think there are good reasons that a lot of the focus is on trans girls and women. I think they are more discriminated against. But at the same time, you can wonder, why aren't we talking about trans boys and men? And what do we lose when we don't hear their perspectives in these conversations surrounding sports? So that was a pleasure to write, and I got a lot of good feedback on that one. 

INTERVIEWER: This actually builds off of that a little bit. For someone who might be interested in being a writer, specifically a sports writer, but who doesn't want to just cover play by play what's happening on the court, for someone who's interested in this broad spectrum that intersects between sports and society, what would be your advice to them on breaking into those topics? 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: Yeah, I would say a lot of your peers are going to want to find beat jobs, like local teams to cover, things like that. But if you're interested in the intersections between sports and society, that might not be the best starting point for you. You might want to do something like what I did and find a job with a political slant or a job on another beat, a job in culture entertainment. 

And just really try to work at a place-- whether it's a big publication or a small publication, try to end up somewhere where you really respect the writing and can learn from working on that. Even if you're a fact checker or an editorial assistant or a copy editor, just try to pick somewhere where you know there are people you can learn from. 

INTERVIEWER: Our fall slate is focused on Northwestern writers to correspond with our new catalog program and online book directory, where alumni authors can submit their work. I want to ask you about your new book, which is due out soon. Talk to me about this project and why you chose to undertake it. 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: Yeah. So as you noted, the book is called Mind Game. And really, really excited about features, interviews, with dozens of elite athletes and experts about how they all grapple with mental health, mental illness, and mental performance within sports. And it came about from a 2020 Sports Illustrated article I did right at the beginning of the pandemic about how elite athletes' mental health was being affected by the pandemic. 

It was right around when the Tokyo Olympics got postponed. And, of course, professionals, a lot of them had lost access to their gyms, had lost access to their regular training routines, their team meetings. So yeah, there were physical challenges involved with that, as well, especially for people who had COVID in those early days. But I didn't want us to neglect the mental health challenges that losing access to your profession and your main stress outlet can pose. 

INTERVIEWER: And I think mental health is, obviously, such an important topic, broadly speaking, but especially for sports, where I think people treat athletes like robots. Did they do the job? Did they not do the job, 0101? 

But there's so much pressure and scrutiny. And I feel like-- and you've talked about this for a long time. There is this trend of not talking about mental health and well being, internalizing it. I feel like, as a sports fan, it seems like this is changing a little bit, especially in the media. Do you think there was any turning point recently? And was there a moment or even a particular athlete that helped bring this conversation more to the foreground? 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: I'm not sure if there's been one particular turning point or one person alone who has changed the tide on this, as you're describing. It's been like a slow burn. But I'll shout out a few people and moments that I think helped. 

Michael Phelps was really early on this, relatively speaking. He has done a lot to raise awareness about mental health, talking about his own suicidal ideation, mostly after the Olympic cycles. He'd go and swim and win all these medals, and then there would be this comedown. And I've learned that that's a really common experience. So I think someone that prominent speaking out years before most other people seemed ready to was really important. 

Then I think the pandemic itself helped in a weird way. Because it gave people more empathy for everyone around them, or at least, you'd hope so. So I think that helped us realize that athletes aren't robots, like you were suggesting. 

And I think during the pandemic, we saw things like Naomi Osaka speaking up. We saw things like Simone Biles struggling. And those are two really prominent iconic athletes of our time, along with Phelps. So I think they both played a huge role. Whether they were going for that or not, I think their experiences really helped change the conversation. 

INTERVIEWER: Are you happy with the state of mental health awareness in sports? What do you think has changed for the better, but maybe what needs to still change going forward? 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: I think I am relatively happy with the state of mental health awareness in sports. What I think needs more work is the treatment options available, the attitudes fans have toward their players, but really, in large part, the treatment options available to athletes and their teams and their leagues. And also, especially in women's sports-- not exclusive to women's sports, but especially in women's sports, we need to keep working on the ways to minimize the abuse of coaches, those scandals that crop up, that can really be detrimental to mental health in athletes. 

INTERVIEWER: And I'm kind of curious because you've, obviously, gotten to work directly with a lot of athletes. For listeners who might not know, you got to work with DeMar DeRozan, Kevin Love. Were you able to interview Simone Biles for this book? 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: Not for the book, but for the FI piece early on in the pandemic, yeah. 

INTERVIEWER: OK, so getting to talk to these people in one-on-one settings, are there any overarching takeaways on things that they're doing to get help? Or maybe are there things that multiple people have said, like, we need this resource, like, this needs to change? 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: I think options and financial support are the biggest things because you shouldn't need to be someone on the level of a Simone Biles or a Kevin Love to come forward about your mental health struggles. But it's often financially precarious if you're, say, a rookie, to make that same choice. Or if you're an Olympian without a zillion gold medals and endorsements in your sport, it can be really challenging as well. 

And I think what I keep hearing from them is make more options available. Some people like working with a psychologist or psychiatrist affiliated with their team. And that option should absolutely exist. But a lot of people also don't trust those options because they're affiliated with their team or their sport, Team USA maybe. So having financial backing to see independent professionals is really important, too. 

INTERVIEWER: We talked a little bit about mental health awareness in sports. I also want to ask you about political awareness in sports. Because that's, obviously, another thing that you care about, that you've written about. Are you happy with the coverage that what some people might consider political or social issues are getting in sports outside of just mental health? 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: It's a great question. I would say, there's still a lot of "shut up and dribble" attitudes that are pretty pervasive around sports and athletes. So I would say, I think we can always do a better job of listening to athletes of printing their views without judgment, unless they're, obviously, harmful views. Then there probably should be some judgment. But yeah, I think we could just do a better job of listening to them of-- I don't want to say elevating their causes, because it's not necessarily our job, but just passing on the word of their causes and treating them like full human beings with interests outside of sports. 

INTERVIEWER: So other than your book, which is coming out soon, tell me about other current projects you're working on and maybe what's next for you or what you hope to be doing soon. 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: Yeah, so I have some exciting stuff on the horizon. I am still following the trans athlete beat from what's going on currently to also looking at history. And I did a "You're Wrong About" podcast episode over the summer about Renee Richards, which I would encourage people to check out. She was an out trans tennis player in the 1970s, so coming up on 50 years ago. And so I think cases like that are really interesting and have a lot to offer for us. 

But a lot of my job, too, is just-- and I'll be continuing to do this, is just checking in on how athletes are doing, specific athletes, whether or not they're public about mental health struggles, just if they've been through difficult situations, just hitting up them or their agent and being like, look, how's it going? Do you need someone to tell your story? What would that look like? So I think that's a lot of my job, at least on the reporting side, and I look to continue doing that. 

INTERVIEWER: Are there any Northwestern shout-outs that you'd like to give? 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: Absolutely. So a fundamental part of my time at Northwestern was writing and editing for North by Northwestern, the online news magazine and the print news magazine. So I really cherish a lot of people and memories from my time there. And I'd encourage people to pick up a copy, visit the website, donate. They're all great. 

And just other than that, I'd love to support like all student media. The Daily Northwestern does great work. And there are so many campus publications because of all the journalism students on campus. And they're all wonderful and offer their own niche coverage of what's going on in different ways. And the student body is so lucky to have that, as well as alumni. 

INTERVIEWER: What's the most important or memorable lesson that you learned at Northwestern? 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: Great question. I think possibly it was about how to pitch a story, makes a story interesting, not just to you, but to other people and to your editors. So I don't know if there's a specific lesson in that, but just like learning how to refine pitches and send them either to your work at a staff job or freelance outlets. I think that was critical for any up and coming journalists. 

INTERVIEWER: And I want to close. I always close with a fun question. If you could sit down with one athlete from history and talk to them about any topic, who would you interview, and what would you ask them about? 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: There are so many people I would love to sit down with and ask questions of. So it's a really hard question. But I think for someone in my line of work, specifically in my interest in sports and surrounding issues, it would have been super cool for me to talk to Muhammad Ali about political activism, about any struggles he faced in the mental health realm, about his choice to stand up for what he believed in. So maybe a little cliche because he's one of the greatest athletes of all time, but I would have loved to be able to sit down with him before he passed. 

INTERVIEWER: Julie Kliegman, thank you so much for joining us. 

JULIE KLIEGMAN: Thank you for having me. It's been really fun. 

[MUSIC PLAYING]