Northwestern University Alumni

Transcript:

MUSIC PLAYING] INTERVIEWER: Welcome back to Northwestern Intersections, a Northwestern Alumni Association podcast. We'll be talking to alums about their career paths and the lessons they've learned along the way. Our guest today is writer Leta McCollough Seletzky. 

She started as a litigator before becoming an award-winning writer with her work featured in publications like The Atlantic, O Magazine, and The New York Times. She was selected as a Creative Writing Fellow by the National Endowment for the Arts in 2022. And in 2023, she released her memoir, The Kneeling Man-- My Father's Life as a Black Spy Who Witnessed the Assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. 

We will dive into all these topics and more in this edition of Northwestern Intersections. Leta, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us. 

LETA MCCOLLOUGH SELETZKY: Thank you for having me. 

INTERVIEWER: First of all, super excited to have you. I want to start with your time at Northwestern. What brought you to Evanston, and what did you study? 

LETA MCCOLLOUGH SELETZKY: Yes. So what brought me to Evanston was, first of all, I knew of Northwestern just on the strength of its reputation alone. Growing up in Memphis, Tennessee, I was very familiar with Northwestern and decided it was time to look at colleges, to travel to Evanston and do a campus tour, like so many high school students do. 

And when I arrived, I fell in love with the place. Just the architecture, the natural setting right by Lake Michigan, just the energy of the place and the feeling of it. So once I visited and really got a feel for it, I was hooked. And I simply couldn't see myself anywhere else. 

And so got there and studied French and political science. I ultimately majored in both. And during that time developed an interest in studying the law. And so I basically kind of was able to explore so many aspects of different issues that set me up very well for law school after I graduated. 

INTERVIEWER: Obviously being a writer now, that's a big difference from being a litigator. First of all, how did you get your first job as a litigator? And what was the point where you realized that you wanted to switch to a new path? 

LETA MCCOLLOUGH SELETZKY: Yes, it was rather a circuitous path, and it's interesting. I mentioned that I studied French and political science. And in my French courses, a lot of those courses actually focused on literature and different movement, not only in France, but in francophone countries around the world. 

And so I studied these things just out of a love of learning. But looking back, I think that those courses really planted the seed that would later develop for my writing career. But at the time that I was at Northwestern, I decided I wanted to be a lawyer. 

And so after I graduated, I had been accepted to a law school back East. But I decided that before I went to law school, I wanted to have the real-world experience of working in a law firm. And so I deferred my matriculation for a year, and I worked in a law firm in The Loop. 

And Northwestern, I think just having that degree from Northwestern, opened so many doors immediately. So I was able to work in this law firm, in the library, of all places. So again, another seed for becoming a writer later. 

But having that experience just confirmed for me that I really did like the law firm environment, the pace of it. I decided I was specifically interested in litigation. So I went ahead and did that. Graduated from law school, went to a big firm in Washington, DC. 

Ended up moving to Texas with my husband. Practiced down there for a little while. And ended up having two children. And it was while I was on maternity leave with my second child-- I now have three-- but with the second one that I was home. And I really started thinking about some of the issues that became central to this memoir that I published this year. But just thinking about questions of legacy. 

And in particular, there was a huge story and a huge silence in my family that I realized I had been running from all along. Going to Northwestern and just deciding I was going to build this life for myself, what I was doing in doing that really was not facing some things that I needed to face that had originated back in my hometown of Memphis. 

And so it was sitting with these issues and kind of wrestling with that that made me decide that what I needed to do was really take some time and break this huge silence about out this issue that had kind of haunted me my whole life. And not only get some answers but document those answers. 

And so the pursuit of that, which originally began in 2010, I would say, is what formed the basis for my book. And so that is how I became a writer. Essentially, I became a writer to tell this big story. And in the course of that, I discovered that there were so many other stories that had to be told that I felt moved to tell as well. 

INTERVIEWER: I'm going to get to some other questions about your writing, but let's just talk about the memoir first. For listeners who might not be aware, tell us about your book and the process behind it. 

LETA MCCOLLOUGH SELETZKY: Yes. So my book is called The Kneeling Man-- My Father's Life as a Black Spy Who Witnessed the Assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. And so that silence that I referenced before is about just that. 

Because from the earliest age that I can remember anything, I remember knowing that in the famous photograph that probably everyone listening has seen, in the famous photograph that was taken in the immediate aftermath of Dr. King's assassination, where Dr. King is lying on the balcony of Memphis's Lorraine Motel. This was April 4, 1968. 

And there are people who are standing over Dr. King, and they are pointing in the direction from which the fatal shot came. Well, there's a man who is kneeling beside Dr. King. And that man is holding a towel to Dr. King's wounded jaw to try to staunch the bleeding. 

Well, that man is my father. And I've known that since I can remember anything. And all I knew about it was simply the fact that it was my father, and that he was a Memphis police officer. That is all anyone ever said about it. 

And I always picked up on this sense that this was not a topic to be discussed. This was not something that was safe to talk about. And so I went along with that silence. 

And my parents divorced when I was very young. I grew up with my mom. My father was living elsewhere, really traveling the world for his job. At the time, I only knew that he worked for the government. That's all that anyone would ever say about it. 

And that's really all I knew until I was a teenager. And I happened to be paging through the Memphis Commercial Appeal newspaper. And I happened upon an article that was talking about the assassination. 

And I learned from that article that my father was not just any Memphis police officer on the scene of that horrible tragedy. But he was there because he was a police mole in a Black activist group called The Invaders, which took inspiration from Oakland's Black Panthers. 

So my father had infiltrated this group and was believed by everybody on that balcony to be Dr. King-- not Dr. King's, excuse me-- but The Invaders' Minister of Transportation. And that's why he was there. 

And so I was shocked. I was embarrassed because by this time, I was developing a political sense of things. And I actually had read quite a bit about the Black Panthers and I rather sympathized with them. And so I just couldn't understand how this man, how my father, a Black man, could infiltrate a group that was ostensibly fighting for Black people's rights and freedom and then report back to law enforcement. 

But at the same time, there was still this hulking silence that I just couldn't break. And so the way that I dealt with that was to compartmentalize it. And so I just went on with my life. I kind of thought the best thing that could come of this is that no one ever connects me to what happened. And so that is the way that I proceeded. 

But after I had my children, I decided that it was not fair to them to pass down this silence. And also, I didn't know what to tell them about their grandfather because I didn't know anything about why he was there, what he saw and experienced. 

Oh, and by the way, I mentioned that my father had been traveling the world. And what I learned also was that-- and I knew this from the age 12 or so-- was that my father was a CIA officer. So he was working for the CIA. And then I learned that he was this police mole. 

And so putting this all together, things just kind of took on a sinister cast in my mind. But finally, I, back in 2010, I've got these two kids. I decided to break that silence, which was a really difficult thing to do. 

And there's really no elegant way to do it. But I just called him up, and I said, hey, dad. The phone conversation started off like our normal cordial conversations. But then I just asked him, we've never talked about the assassination of Dr. King. I would like to know what happened. 

And by the way, I don't know much of anything about your life. I don't know about your upbringing. And so I would like to know about that as well. And so my father, after a few beats of silence, said, I'll tell you what. I will prepare some notes for you. And then I want you to read those notes, and then let's talk about it. 

And so shortly after that, he emailed me a document in Word, 17-page document. And this was this answer that I'd been wondering about and had asked for. And what I found was I could not get past page three of this document because it was so painful. 

He started off talking about his childhood in Tibbs, Mississippi, Tunica County, one of the poorest counties in the United States of America and just his experience under that oppression. And it was so overwhelming that I just decided I will come back to this when I'm ready, which didn't come for another five years. 

So finally, in 2015, I got through the rest of those 17 pages, began interviewing my father, ultimately from 2015 through 2022. I recorded those interviews. Most of them were by phone, but some of them were in person. And that was sort of the meat of the story, simply because the information that he has, no one else had. 

And so I thought, OK, well, this is a new primary source. And so I transcribed those interviews. And so I had that to go from. But then I had to corroborate what he told me. So I did a Freedom of Information Act request for FBI documents. And I talked to some of The Invaders, the members of this group that he had infiltrated and asked them, How did you feel when you found out that this man you thought was your friend turned out to be a police spy? 

And, of course, I read tons of books, just to get a sense of the background and the context and the history, learning about Dr. King and the broader context of the Civil Rights movement, Black Freedom movement. So it was a massive undertaking. I would say that the most difficult part was just knowing where to stop. How much did I need to know, and how much could I kind of cut out? 

INTERVIEWER: It's an unbelievable story. And I feel like the process is almost unbelievable in its own way, thinking about all of those years, not knowing. And I feel like memoirs are already so personal, and it takes a lot of courage to write a memoir, but especially when it's a topic like this. Do you feel like you learned about yourself during the process? What were the biggest takeaways from you working on this? 

LETA MCCOLLOUGH SELETZKY: I learned so much, including things about myself. I would say that the biggest takeaway that I got was that-- this sense of the ways in which marginalized people are trying to get free within systems and outside of systems and what that struggle looks like. And that in a sense, in writing this book, and collecting my father's story and kind of putting it together with the history that was known, that was a way of liberating myself as well. 

INTERVIEWER: I want to ask you also about the approach to your memoir versus your other many essays which you've written. What would you say was the biggest challenge for writing something so personal versus writing an essay or another piece of work for, let's say The New York Times or The Atlantic? 

LETA MCCOLLOUGH SELETZKY: So many differences, so many differences because in writing a book like this, not only is it very personal, and so there's always this thought of how much of one's self does one want to share with the world. 

I think there are just the technical challenges of long-form writing, and especially with a subject that has great personal import but also historical import as well. One of the things that I came to realize was that this story was so much bigger than just me and dad or just our family. But this is a piece of American history and world history. 

And so I felt a huge responsibility with that. I felt a huge weight with that. And so there was this constant, I would say, just kind of mental battle to not be afraid to take up this story and to just dive in and really just tackle it one scene at a time. 

I couldn't really look at the whole story in trying to sit down at my computer and draft it because it would just be too overwhelming. But if I just took one scene at a time, then it became so much more manageable. And just the research tasks became easier, and just the writing itself became easier. 

INTERVIEWER: Thinking about switching gears a tiny bit to the essays that you write and the other pieces, just for those who might not be aware, how did you get-- first of all, how did you get your fellowship? And how do you pick those topics for essays? And really, how does that come about? What does an essay to do versus, quote unquote, "a career writer" for a newspaper or a magazine? 

LETA MCCOLLOUGH SELETZKY: Right. And so becoming an essayist was just kind of something that I really fell into in the process of trying to learn the craft of writing creative nonfiction in order to write this one book. And so I ended up moving to the Lake Tahoe area. And I became aware of some creative nonfiction writing courses at this local school that was in my town. 

And so I decided to just audit one of these courses. By this point, I had taken a hiatus from law practice. And I'm there with my two kids, just kind of looking for something to do. And not only that, but knowing that, OK, I have to tell this story. I cannot continue to run from it. 

But writing is also a craft, and so I need to learn this craft. And so I audited the course, and in the course of doing that, we had to write essays and workshop these essays in the class. And so out of that class, I had all these little essays, nuggets of essays. 

So I decided, well, I don't think these are bad. And so maybe I should just pitch these. And I figured out how to pitch an essay, essentially thinking about publications that I like to read and whether any of these pieces would fit into those. 

And so I pitched my first essay, which had nothing to do with my dad, the assassination, nothing like that. But I pitched it to an online publication that-- it was unpaid, but I was just happy to just have that experience. And so that got published. 

So then I had something to put in my next pitch to say, hey, I actually have a published essay under my belt. And so I just began to build and build from there, one essay at a time. 

And then I think it was probably my second essay where I actually got a little money. So I thought, OK, now this is actually turning into a job. And so at this point, I'm a freelance essayist which, to your question of what is the difference between someone like me, who was working freelance and pitching essays, versus a staff writer, was that I really had a lot of freedom to pick and choose what I wanted to write about. And if the publication accepted the piece, then it got published. 

And then I think also as an essayist, I am advancing arguments. I'm advancing opinions that are informed by my experience and story. I'm also putting in research as well to undergird the ideas that I'm advancing. But it's a different kind of thing than being, for example, a journalist for a newspaper, although there certainly are journalistic elements to some of my essays that I have published over the years. 

INTERVIEWER: First of all, congratulations on being a Creative Writing Fellow from the National Endowment of the Arts. That's an incredible honor. What inspired you? Is this something that you apply for? Is this something you're selected for? What was it like getting that, and what kind of work did you do during this fellowship? 

LETA MCCOLLOUGH SELETZKY: Yes. And so the way that I got the fellowship that by that point in my career, I had a number of essays under my belt that had been published in great places. And I was working on the book, and in fact, had a manuscript that was completed of my book. 

And so I thought when I learned about the National Endowment for the Arts and these fellowships that provide funding for writers to advance their careers, and you really get a lot of liberty with how you can use that funding, as long as it is going toward the advancement of your career. For example, being able to go to workshops, being able to travel, all kinds of things. 

I decided to apply. I decided to give it a try. And so I went to the website and filled it out and submitted excerpts of my book manuscript for The Kneeling Man. And was pleasantly surprised when I got the phone call that I had been awarded this fellowship. 

But it means so much, not just from a material perspective of getting the funding to really be able to pursue this career, which, of course, is hugely important, but just to have the affirmation that this work really means something, that it's valuable, and the encouragement to continue. And then backing that up with the resources to do so. 

And so I would say that getting the NEA fellowship has really-- I think it took my writing career to the next level. And I think thanks to the NEA, I now have not only the resources, but just that confidence to really explore the ideas that I have and to put them to the page. 

INTERVIEWER: For any listeners who might be interested in a fellowship, getting their writing more out there, what would your advice be to them for seeking out those opportunities? 

LETA MCCOLLOUGH SELETZKY: I would say, first of all, write. And I know that sounds really simplistic. But it really is the lifeblood of what you're trying to do. So first of all, write. Second of all-- this is really closely following the first thing-- read. Be a reader of other people's writing. Read lots of different publications. Get a sense of different styles and what speaks to you and your artistic sense. 

And then I think that getting plugged into a community of writers, whether it's an online community, whether it's on social media, or-- and I think this is really a great thing to do-- is start getting plugged into writing workshop types and conventions. For example, back in 2016, once I got really serious about writing this book, I attended the Community of Writers in Olympic Valley in Nevada. Actually, it's on the California side, I'm sorry. It's in California, close to Nevada. 

But I got plugged into the Community of Writers in Olympic Valley. And that became an invaluable resource, just to get to know other writers but also agents, publishers, editors. And so through these types of networks, you will learn about opportunities. You'll see what other people have done, and get inspired. You'll get practical assistance along the way. And then also, just that encouragement that we really need as writers to continue on. 

INTERVIEWER: And I also want to ask you this because this has come up with actually a lot of people who I've gotten to interview. You didn't just major in creative writing, become a writer, end of story. And I think a lot of people have gone a million different directions before becoming a writer. What's your advice for someone who has a creative spark and who really wants to get their ideas out there but either, A, might not know where to go with it, or B, who might not have a creative writing background? 

LETA MCCOLLOUGH SELETZKY: Yes. I would say nurture that spark. And again, that just comes down to setting aside a little time, however little that might be. And as a mom of three now, I know that. I don't necessarily have huge blocks of time. 

However, the time that I do have, I do like to set aside and really just put some ideas down on the page. And this is a little tip that works for me, is that I actually draft longhand when I can. And I feel like there's some kind of connection between the brain and the hand, particularly writing in script, that helps ideas flow better than just sitting at a computer and tap, tap, tap, for me. 

Especially if I feel like ideas are not flowing like I would like, I actually start drafting longhand. And I feel like it does something. I feel like there's some kind of neurological connection with that. So that's something to try. 

Also I would say, again, connecting with writers because the moment that you do, you will see the diversity of backgrounds. I mean, I am someone who never set out to become a writer. And Northwestern-- again, I'm studying French literature. So much of the writing that I did was in French. And it was just for the interest of it, and, of course, to get the degree. 

But I think that people will find that if they have that creative spark, there's a reason for that, and that they should consider that a calling, like an actual vocation. And so you nurture that, learn the craft, buy craft books. Go-- excuse me-- go to workshops. All of these things, I think, will pay such dividends. 

INTERVIEWER: I want to ask you one final advice-related question. So you obviously had a great career. You went to law school. You were a litigator for many years. And then after this pause-- and a really purposeful pause, obviously learning your history and then kind of preparing the memoir-- what was the biggest challenge changing careers? 

And what was the most meaningful part of changing careers? And how would you give advice to someone who is thinking I've got a great career but there's something else that's kind of pulling me in this direction? How would you navigate that? 

LETA MCCOLLOUGH SELETZKY: Right. I think the biggest challenge would just be switching gears mentally and just figuring out in the midst of that switching of gears what your identity is. I think a lot of times, not necessarily intentionally, even, but so much of our identity is bound up in what we're doing as a career. 

And I think that I was no exception to that. Having been a litigator, it's sort of like, I am a litigator. And so I learned that once I went on pause in practicing law that well, no, I wasn't a litigator. I am Leta. I practiced in litigation. 

But I think that is a challenge, just the way that one sees oneself. And there could be this feeling of OK, well, now what? And I'm kind of starting over, and I don't know what I'm doing. But one gets over that, especially when you have a purpose, as you referenced. This was a purpose-driven kind of break. 

And so I think that having that shift and having that-- being confronted by the question of identity became an advantage. Because then when I went into writing, I was much more aware that writing is something that I do. It's not who I am. 

And I had another-- I knew that I had more dimensions to my life. I had done different things. I was also a parent. And so it allowed me, I think, to have a healthy perspective on my writing career as this is something I feel called to do. However, this does not define me. 

INTERVIEWER: Really good advice. And it's hard to do. I have a few other questions for you about future projects. What are you working on right now, and what are your goals for the future? 

LETA MCCOLLOUGH SELETZKY: I am writing a novel. It's really scary to say because I have never attempted fiction before. So we're talking about switching gears. And so this is another switching of gears because I kind of fell into this idea that I am an essayist and memoirist. And it's kind of tough to think of myself as now writing a novel. 

But it's a lot of fun. The novel-- I'm in the very early stages of it. But it is the story of the rise and fall of print journalism and really, I think, American journalism, as seen through the lens of a Southern newspaper and the experience of a Black woman who joins that newspaper as a rookie reporter in the 1980s and the things that she faces and the changes that she sees in the newsroom, the opposition that she gets for various reasons, and the trajectory that she is launched on in joining this paper. 

So I'm working on that right now. It actually requires a lot of research, which I had this idea after I finished The Kneeling Man that OK, well, now I can do something fun because The Kneeling Man was just research, research, research for years, really heavy. And I thought, OK, well, now I can just tell a story that's fun. 

I think it will be fun, but it also is a lot of research, just to be able to tell the story and create a realistic picture of the people and places that I want to describe and this world that I want to bring the reader into. But I-- very excited about it. And I think it's a really good thing to do, after one has published a book and it's kind of out in the world, to have something else going on so I'm not just constantly watching, like, what's happening with the book? Who's saying what? 

So that's been really valuable for me. And so my hopes for the future are, quite simply, to continue to tell stories, to continue to write in whatever way that looks like for me at whatever stage of life that I'm in. 

INTERVIEWER: Thinking back again to your time at Northwestern as well, are there any specific experiences or people that were really formative in your path? Are there any Northwestern shout-outs that you'd like to give? 

LETA MCCOLLOUGH SELETZKY: Yes. So many formative experiences, so many people that I would love to shout-out, but that would be the whole program. All the alums that I've met along the way everywhere you go in the world, it seems. In my experience, there's going to be a Northwesterner there. And that has just been so valuable. 

And so I would say specifically, having moved between numerous cities, not only the United States, but around the world, it's been really valuable to me to have that community of alumni. And so I would like to, first of all, thank you all in Alumni Relations for all the valuable work that you do and this community that you're fostering among us. 

But also, yeah, moving to the San Francisco Bay area, where I live now. I moved here in 2018. And one of the first ways that I really got to connect with the place and the people here was by meeting some Northwesterners and going to a football game that was here in the Bay Area. 

And it was just so cool to see that sea of purple and white, even though here we are near San Francisco, but Northwesterners are here in force. And so that was a really great welcome to the Bay Area. 

And so people I want to shout-out. Let's see. Again, so many to name, but to name a few-- Tiffany Pugh and Laura Fowler. Laura is actually my cousin. We were in the same class there. I would like to shout-out Josetta Jones, who introduced me to Northwesterners here in the Bay Area. I believe she's down in Houston now, but she is the Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer at Chevron. And she's just an all-around outstanding person and trailblazer. 

Professor Tonya Evans-- she is also a writer. She has a new book out called Digital Money Demystified. People should definitely check that out. Meka King, who is a multi-talented performer and just all-around excellent person. So those are just a few of the names, but just really everyone that I've remained in touch with, and Northwesterners near and far. I would definitely like to send a shout-out to you. 

INTERVIEWER: Usually that's my last question. But since it's February, and we're celebrating Black History Month, not only in the podcast but really across our alumni programs, are there any role models, special influences, Black History Month shout-outs that you'd like to give? 

LETA MCCOLLOUGH SELETZKY: So many role models, so many influences, once again. I'll start out with my dad, The Kneeling Man. In researching this book and speaking with him and really getting to know him and breaking the silence that had existed between us my whole life, I came to understand and appreciate him in a whole new way. And I really stand in awe of him and all that he's done under the circumstances in which he found himself. 

And similarly my mother, who is a veteran journalist, who raised me and my brother and my younger siblings as well. I definitely look to them and other family members-- my maternal grandparents, who had a huge hand in raising me. 

And then moving out from family, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. He is-- to say that he is a lion of the Civil Rights movement or a drum major for freedom, I think, really understates the case. And so I definitely give him my deepest gratitude and appreciation for his work, his life and legacy, and great sacrifices. 

And knowingly throughout the work that he did, put his life at risk. It was very dangerous. And very tragically, that danger and risk did materialize in a place where my father happened to be. So I would say those are the big ones for me. 

INTERVIEWER: One final fun question, thinking about yourself as a writer. If you could sit down for a writing session, just a one-on-one with any writer from history, who would you sit down with, and what would you ask them about? 

LETA MCCOLLOUGH SELETZKY: That is a fun one but a very tough one. Because I really want to choose two, but I feel like that would be cheating. So the one that I will choose is Toni Morrison, who has given me such inspiration over the years and was also very active with the National Endowment for the Arts. 

But I would love to sit down with her and do some writing. And what would I ask her? I think the question that I have for her, I'm not sure really has an answer. But the question that occurs to me is simply How do you persist? I would love to hear her response to that, especially in the time we're living in now 

INTERVIEWER: Leta, thank you so much again for joining us. 

LETA MCCOLLOUGH SELETZKY: Thank you for having me. 

[MUSIC PLAYING]