Audrey Cheng ’15 on Redefining Success to Prioritize Happiness

[MUSIC PLAYING] CASSIE PETOSKEY: Welcome to Northwestern Intersections, a Northwestern Network podcast where we talk to alumni about their careers. We'll hear what they've done right, what they've done wrong, and the stories behind both. I'm Cassie Petoskey with the Northwestern Alumni Association Career Advancement Team.

Today I'm speaking with Audrey Cheng. Audrey is the CEO and co-founder of the Moringa School, a Nairobi, Kenya-based multidisciplinary learning accelerator committed to providing young Africans with digital and professional skills training. Thank you so much for being here with us today, Audrey.

AUDREY CHENG: Thanks for having me.

CASSIE PETOSKEY: And we're so excited to chat with you about the work you're doing right now in Nairobi, but before we get there, I'd love to start where you started, and that is your first job and however you interpret that.

AUDREY CHENG: [LAUGHS] Absolutely. So I've been working since I was I guess 13 or 14. So from middle to high school. And so I guess-- ooh, it's my first job . I've had a variety of different types of jobs growing up, so I guess quick here or I guess a more interesting job is that I was actually a tour guide for a lighthouse. And so I became really fascinated with lighthouses and started giving tours.

CASSIE PETOSKEY: Oh, that is so interesting and unique. A tour guide. Now how did you-- how did that job come up?

AUDREY CHENG: Honestly I remember-- I guess just was like seeing the lighthouse and just realizing, wow, like it's super interesting., I want to learn more about it. And so essentially I just knocked on the door of the lighthouse and asked, oh, are there any activities or anything that happens around here that can help with? And realized that they're actually looking for a tour guide. So that's how I came across it.

CASSIE PETOSKEY: That is so interesting, so proactive to just go and ask and see if that could work out, and very interesting. And so it sounds like you've done a lot of different things, and it seems like you could learn a ton of things from a variety of jobs. What do you use still today in your work that you learned as a tour guide for the lighthouse or in some of those different jobs that you had starting out?

I guess this might be a very millennial response, but I guess that the idea that the world is your oyster, it sort of rings true to an extent, but I think that there's definitely a lot of different contexts, et cetera around that, but I did realize at a young age that I just need to start asking for things. And so I think-- like when I was younger, I realized that oh, like my family was-- wasn't very high income, and so I needed to actually start working out of necessity.

And so in that moment just realizing that learning how I saw myself, I'm learning how to actually just ask for things, right? And to just not being afraid of rejection or failure or however we perceive it is just so important, right? Because I guess we do hold ourselves from a lot of the opportunities that come up, and I've learned that I guess as I'm going through my 20s and seeing some of my friends and how they're progressing through their careers, is really oftentimes the person that's really holding them back the most is themselves. And so I think just-- like my biggest lesson learned was always just around like asking and not being afraid to ask.

CASSIE PETOSKEY: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's great. Great insight to learn early. And it seems like you started asking for opportunities and different things early on in your career. What did you ask for that you were surprised that you actually got?

AUDREY CHENG: So I remember when I was actually at Northwestern, I was I guess always hustling. So working three or four jobs at any one point. And so one of the jobs that I got, I was just like very surprised by it. And so it was a company called Kissmetrics. And so they do really incredible work out of the Bay Area. And I remember just-- I think it was the CEO. I just added him on LinkedIn, I wrote a short message, and he actually got back to me.

And I worked from that point, we were able to jump on a call, I was able to kind of sell myself like yes, while I am a student, I've done x, y, and z before, so my work experience is really beyond like my age or beyond what I'm learning at school. And being able to really sell him the-- I guess impact that I would able to make on this organization.

And so he-- instead of making me an intern, he was actually, oh, this is great, you can actually consult with us. So I think that that was something that was very surprising, because it was an organization that I really looked up to and I still do now, and the fact that they were able to take a chance-- willing to take a chance on me and able to, it was just really exciting. I think that built a lot of my confidence and understanding that we just need to try and get past.

CASSIE PETOSKEY: Yeah, absolutely. That's awesome. And I'd love to dive into that experience. We have a lot of alumni, young alumni, recent alumni students who are coming to the Alumni Association for these career resources and looking for-- asking questions on how to make those approaches. And so I'm curious, when you were first thinking it out emailing the CEO, what did that email look like? And then once he connected with you, how did you approach that first contact when you had that conversation with him? Can you talk us through that a little bit?

AUDREY CHENG: Yeah, definitely. So I guess the biggest thing for me was just like not overthinking it. Because I think oftentimes when we work up in our minds like, oh, this is someone-- the CEO of whatever company that we're excited about, we start to overthink like, oh, they'll never respond to me, and we'll come up with a lot of stories that actually end up holding us back from being able to just do it, right?

And again, after doing it and after asking, even if someone says, hey, I'm too busy, again, not a problem, and just kind of being able to move past that. But I think once I did reach out to him and then he responded back, and I was like, oh, this is great. Again, it was just reminding myself not to overthink it, and so staying very true to who I am, my personality, and myself, but also understanding that when I sent him the email or when I jump on a call with him, I have to really understand my audience. I think that that was a big lesson that I learned from journalism school at Northwestern, was really kind of understand who I'm talking to, what kind of questions can I ask this person, and how do we make sure that they know that I respect them and their opinion.

And so of course I did a lot of my research before jumping on that call. And so by the time we were on the call, like he knew that I was very thoughtful, I had done pre-work, and that it wasn't just like a call with a random college student. I'm just [INAUDIBLE]. And so I think I was very intentional in that what is the outcome that I want to have from this call? What are some ways that I can have that conversation to achieve that outcome?

I think at the end it was just not being afraid to ask again, right? At the end of the conversation being just really bold and saying, hey, I'm really excited about your company, I want to find a way to contribute, is there a way that I can do that? And I think people really respect that, and just be able to say it instead of hide what I'm really looking for.

CASSIE PETOSKEY: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love that. That's great, being intentional and going into that conversation prepared, those are really great insights for alumni who are looking to make career transitions and wondering if they should make that ask. Don't overthink it, go for it, but be intentional. That's great.

And Audrey, it seems like you've been really intentional-- you have been very intentional with the work that you're doing now. And I'd love to hear your story of how you got into the work that you're doing now.

AUDREY CHENG: Definitely. So it was kind of a funny story, and I think it's very deeply integrated with my experience at Northwestern for better or for worse. And so I think when I was at Northwestern-- and to be honest, ever since being a student from elementary school, middle school, and high school, I always thought that education isn't really built for this generation in the way that-- because learning, it happens the way that content is delivered, et cetera.

And so I think when I got to Northwestern, I was hoping for these big philosophical conversations on the meaning of the world, like what is our purpose, et cetera. And I think it ends up becoming a lot more around-- I guess that there's still that element of like studying to the test, as just there was a lot of elements around critical thinking.

And so I think for me, I guess like the way I ended up coming to Kenya in the first place was I realized pretty early on in my Northwestern experience that as much as there is learning that happens in the classroom, and a lot of that has shaped who I am today, there's also a ton of learning that happens outside.

And so I spend a lot of time in Chicago. So at 1871, which is like the startup incubator space, et cetera. I spent a lot of time there and a lot of time, again, working for startups as well in Chicago, again, to get more exposure and understanding on how does the real world actually operate. But I was able to pair that practical experience with what I was learning at Northwestern.

And so I majored in journalism and I minored in global health. And so with journalism, as much as I love writing, and I still do a lot of it now, I realize that I'm not as passionate about the quick turnaround stories, and actually, I was quite jealous of some the people I was interviewing who were creating really cool solutions to problems that they were seeing.

And so on one hand I saw that from the journalism side, and on the other side with global health, I realized that a lot of what we talk about in global health is about how a lot of donor funding, Western funding going to these emerging markets were actually being used in a really ineffective way. So either they're going to like operational expenses for all these nonprofits, they're not actually going to directly impact that user.

And so I was really curious about that. On one hand, I'm in Chicago, at 1871 and working with startups, I realized that when you're building a company, you need to be serving a need. You need to be essentially delivering value for your customer. And if you don't, then your business shuts down. And so I thought quite similarly, nonprofits are being funded by these international foundations. So who they're serving is a little bit different. But in companies, you have to serve your audience. And that's how you can build your economy.

And so I became really excited about how we bring this kind of model around 1871, with like these startup spaces that provide mentorship, resources, more funding, et cetera. How we bring that to emerging markets. And so I happened to find out about this venture fund called [INAUDIBLE] that invests in early-stage tech companies across Africa. And at that point they were based in Nairobi.

And again, very similarly to my example with Kissmetrics is I found the managing partner's email online. And I e-mailed him. And I was just saying, look, I know you don't know me, but I'm very excited about the work you're doing. If there's any way I can support, please let me know. And so he ended up actually again, replying. And then we got him to call. I worked with him for about a year remotely. And then he invited me to come out to Kenya in March of 2014. And so that was actually my junior year, spring quarter. Which is how I got out the first time.

CASSIE PETOSKEY: So now that you're in Kenya, you went out the first time, and now you came back to school and then founded your own organization?

AUDREY CHENG: Yes, so I guess in terms of timeline-- so I came out to Kenya the first time in March of 2014. And so I was supporting the venture funds on an accelerator class, which means that they had different companies from across the continent that are in Kenya. And my job was to help them really scale up and grow faster.

And so when I was supporting these companies, I realized that my assumption coming to Kenya was that if we invest in entrepreneurs and give them the resources, mentorship, et cetera, then they will really be able to succeed and then build their economies. But I realized that I was taking a few steps further and I needed to take a few steps back. And I realized that actually skills development was one of the biggest needs around to be able to create more innovations and be able to build more companies to build the economy.

And so I took a step back and realized that we need to be creating an alternative education model. Because I spent a lot of time in universities in Kenya, really understand the problem, talking to companies, talking to students. And realized that this kind of education model doesn't exist and really needed to.

And so April of 2014 is our official founding date. And so we started running the school in April 2014. I went back to the US that summer because I had a fellowship with a fund in San Francisco called True Ventures. And I also spent some time in San Francisco talking to all these boot camps in the US and understanding their model, how we can partner with them and work with them. And I went back to Northwestern fall quarter to finish up. And then in January 2015, I moved back out to Kenya to start a first class.

CASSIE PETOSKEY: Wow, that's great. And so you're doing skill development work through your organization. Your role as the co-founder and CEO-- are you spending time doing that skill development? Or are you doing more organizational management? And how has your role shifted from starting to where you are now, years later?

AUDREY CHENG: So when we started in 2015-- so I think one thing I'm quite excited about with Moringa is that we've been bootstrapped since we started. And so I put in some startup capital, but since our first couple of months, we've been actually able to make revenue and cover our costs based on the tuition that we're charging.

And so when we started Moringa School, I was just doing a ton of different things. I had a co-founder who was a local Kenyan. And so we were just doing everything. I was doing marketing, admissions, I was teaching in the classroom, I was talking to the employers, making sure our students were able to get jobs afterwards. My co-founder was it was doing a lot in the classroom as well, like building content, teaching, et cetera.

And so we were doing a ton in the very beginning. And so since 2015, my role has definitely shifted and changed over time. So our team right now is a team of about 85. And we'll be around 120 by end of this year. And so because of that, that kind of shift and change, I'm spending a lot more of my time on development. So launching new courses, strategy, the direction of our products, filling our sales pipeline, driving quality across the organization, building the team, and also investor relations now.

CASSIE PETOSKEY: That's awesome. That's amazing. So quite a shift from early on to what you're doing now. What has surprised you and challenged you the most?

AUDREY CHENG: I think the biggest thing I've learned is just how reflective the organization would be of me and my personality. And so I guess what I mean by that is, I think I've gone through a ton of personal development in last couple of years. And so anywhere from my own fears-- I guess my own imposter syndrome on why am I the one doing this. Aren't there many other people would be much better at this than I am? And so kind of going through a lot of those phases.

And I think it's really just about acknowledging and becoming aware of the fear and continuing to kind of almost be friends with my fear as opposed to push it away. And so I think that that's the most surprising to me. Because when we started, it was really just about building and surviving. And so I didn't really have as much time to think about that. And it's very draining-- a ton of initial burnout in the first few years.

But I think as the organization is growing and becoming more stable, again, a lot of these personal identity questions have come up. And I think it's been a really interesting journey, honestly. And it's allowed me to be more reflective and understanding of what kind of organization and culture I want to be building in Moringa.

CASSIE PETOSKEY: Yeah, definitely. That's really great. And thinking about the organizational culture that you're trying to build, I'm curious how you hire. And if you can talk a little bit about how you went about growing your team. And you said you're going to grow from 85 to 120 people by the end of the year. And talk about your strategy behind that.

AUDREY CHENG: So I think the number one way to find amazing people is just through amazing people. And so I was very intentional on our first number of hires. And even now, being very involved with our director of people on our hiring processes, et cetera. Because I think one great hire can make such a massive difference to the organization.

And so I guess our strategy around hiring again-- a big one is from referrals. So referrals from our current team is on making sure that we have a strong employer brand in the local market and internationally. And making sure that we are able to share opportunities at Moringa globally.

And so I think that that's been really effective for us. I think being really clear also on what our company culture is and defining it through our values, our behaviors. And bringing that into our hiring process as well has done wonders for hiring great people.

CASSIE PETOSKEY: Yeah, absolutely. I can't remember what I was reading recently that was basically telling me that if you're being interviewed, and you ask the organization what are your values, and they can't give you a few right off the bat, that's a red flag. And that's so amazing that you weave that into your hiring practices-- what your values are as an organization. People who are being interviewed are probably like, oh my gosh, I want to be here. I want to be a part of this, which is fun.

And so you mentioned a little bit about the Northwestern network and how your education has played out in a few different ways. How has the Northwestern Network more broadly impacted your career?

AUDREY CHENG: So I think a big part has been my Northwestern experience. So the people I met at Northwestern-- professors who really helped broaden my view and understanding of the world. And so I think that there are still a few professors that I'll keep in touch with-- or also of course friends from Northwestern-- that continue to just remind me of where we came from and then where we still need to go. And so I think that's been really great for me. Of course, every time I go back to the US, I'll check in and see how my friends from Northwestern are doing. And again, that always really creates a lot of drive and a lot of inspiration for me.

CASSIE PETOSKEY: Yeah, definitely. And it's funny that you were referred to me by one of our previous podcast guests, which is just great, thinking about how the Northwestern network is promoting each other. That's just so fun.

And thinking about your career-- you've obviously done some really amazing things with founding the school and growing it so quickly. What are some of the things that you're personally most proud of in your career?

AUDREY CHENG: I think one thing that I'm continuously surprised by is just resilience. When I was starting Moringa School, I didn't overthink it. But I think we've been dealt with so many blows and so many storms that we've had to weather. And the fact that we've really made it through it and have come out stronger and still alive, which is great. And I've still been able to hold true to our values and still have amazing people that we work with every day. I think for me that's just felt really amazing.

CASSIE PETOSKEY: That's great, the resilience factor. And you mentioned earlier, facing burnout early on. How did you handle getting through that. And how would you advise-- I know so many folks who are probably going to listen to this podcast are working through that challenge of, am I burned out? Do I want to push through? Do I want to do something different? How would you advise those folks to persevere?

AUDREY CHENG: Honestly, I think it's just about re-framing. So I've thought about this a lot around burnout. But really understanding what is really important. And I'm extremely grateful that I grew up in a very Buddhist family. And so growing up in this family, there was a lot of affirmation and a lot of-- not affirmation. There was just a lot of teaching and lessons around happiness and around how change isn't permanent. Things are constantly shifting and how that's very normal.

And so I think with burnout, I realized that a lot of it was just the stories that we tell ourselves. And for me for example, when I was burning out, the story I was telling myself was, as a CEO of an early-stage company, I need to be working x number of hours per week. I need to be really pushing myself. And so I'm at my limit. Now I need to be doing x,y,z.

And I realize that when I took a step back, I was actually looking at that and saying, this is not even close to a route to happiness. Ultimately, I have to be thinking long term. If I want the organization to be long term, and survive, and prosper, I also need to be feeling that way as well.

And so I remember taking a step back and realizing, OK, I need to set certain rules for myself. I can be very productive, but in all the productivity studies, it shows that working x number of hours in a really focused way per day is just way, way better than working many, many hours with x percentage of productivity. I can't remember the actual numbers.

But I think for me, it was just setting really clear boundaries. In the morning, I have my routine that gives me energy, makes me happy, and then I'm starting the day strong. And then from this hour to this hour, I'm in meetings, I'm working, I'm getting things done. And just being able to separate my days so that it's based on my energy levels, et cetera. And being able to cut myself off at a certain time and saying, from this time to this time, I'm just not working. I've been also setting clear goals like on weekends, I'm not touching my computer.

And so I think it has been funny. Because the question I always get is, well, if you're doing that, then are you holding back the progress of the organization? But I actually do think that I'm actually doing more for the organization than by pushing and forcing everyone to work on weekends and work really late. Because it's just not healthy for longevity, health and wellness, and ultimately, of course, the company succeeding.

CASSIE PETOSKEY: Absolutely, that's so interesting. My question when you were talking about this is, this is amazing that you are able to set boundaries and lead by example. How does this impact your organization? Do your employees feel like they have good boundaries and they have a good balance so they're not going to hit that wall and be burned out?

AUDREY CHENG: To be honest, this is definitely something that I've struggled with over time as well. Because I think as the organization gets bigger, every action that I take, everything that I do is something that I'm modeling for the rest of the organization of what is OK behavior and what is not. And so I've become a lot more conscious about that over time.

And so I think of course, in the beginning-- and to be honest, this was even a couple of months ago-- I was taking a vacation, a trip, but I was still answering calls and just joining a few meetings that I thought were very important that I couldn't miss. And so again, that was setting the precedent to everyone that hey, when you're on vacation, you should still be available to jump on a call.

And again, I realized at that moment-- I was like OK, I cannot do this. I need to just say look, I'm on vacation. I can't. Let's talk next week. Because I think asking that question as well-- is this actually that urgent? And is this actually that important? And if it really is make or break, then of course, I need to get ahead of it. But how can I play my time so I can deal with that before I go on a trip and then come back afterwards?

And I think that's been quite good for the organization. Because even this quarter, we're talking a lot about health and wellness, a lot by prioritizing our own mental health, understanding stress, et cetera, getting the team a counselor that they can talk to. And I think that's just been really powerful. Because it shows the team that we care about this. We acknowledge that this is a problem in fast-growth companies. But we also want to make sure that we're providing the support that we need to.

CASSIE PETOSKEY: Yeah, that's great. And prioritizing mental health-- that just seems like it's so important for people personally. It helps them personally. But it also is going to make the organization just a better place to be, which is great. The ultimate goal, it sounds like, is making sure people are happy. And then that makes that organization that much stronger, which is great-- like a byproduct.

And Audrey, with being proud of the resilience factor, it sounds like there have been some impactful challenges that you've had to overcome throughout founding this organization, and building it, and growing it. What have been some of the most impactful challenges that you've had to overcome in your career?

AUDREY CHENG: So a number of examples, but the one I'll kind of zoom in on is in 2016. And so in 2016, that was our second year of operating in Kenya. And I remember there was a three-month period where just everything bad just happened. Again, we were a smaller team then. One of my colleagues passed away just very suddenly. He was very young. It was very surprising to the team. And it was something that really took us back a number of weeks because people were grieving.

So really learning wow, how do I deal with that? How do I deal with my own grief and also support the team while that was happening? So I think that was a big one. I think in Kenya also, funerals and death-- there are certain customs that I didn't know. So to just really listening to the team asking what should we be doing. So I think that was hard.

The second thing was that during that time we had to fire half the team because we were essentially restructuring and shifting into a different way of teaching. So it was good for the organization, but firing half the team-- that's extremely, extremely hard. So letting people go, managing the shifts in our culture when that happened and managing all the change.

A lot of personal things also happened that were just really unlucky, like my house getting robbed, I fell off a bike-- one of those motorbikes, and just a lot of really hard and unlucky things. And there are a number of other things that happened during that period that I mentioned. But it was just really, really hard. And I think that really tested my will and really tested-- is this something I really want to be doing?

Even in 2016 at that point, we hadn't proven our model yet. And we haven't shown that this can actually work. And so again, it was a really hard time to understand is this worth it. And I think having come out of that, it was just really validating for me that when I talk to a student, or I'd run into an alumni, or talk to an employer who's like wow it's like without Moringa School, I wouldn't have been able to get so much amazing talent that's really driven my business. It's really kind of made my life a lot easier.

For our students to say, without Moringa, I couldn't have been able to get a job and support my family, or build my career, build my confidence, et cetera. I think that's what made it really worth it. So I think of course on the business side of being able to grow on the impact side of saying that what we're doing is both a really great business, but also really impactful for our stakeholders and for the world.

CASSIE PETOSKEY: Yeah, the impact piece, and that's so interesting being both a business and like you said, funding yourself through that revenue, but also being able to have this huge impact that is clearly so motivating to get through such trying and tough, challenging times in your life. That's amazing.

I can't imagine going through all of those things at one time and coming out on the other side and growing the organization knowing that these things are going to make you stronger, which is just amazing. Because now it seems like that shift-- you talked about the shift in your culture with your team. That seems like that has really worked out in being able to scale and grow. Was that integral and crucial to the growth-- that shift?

AUDREY CHENG: Yes, so you're saying that the shifts and kind of prioritizing culture or--

CASSIE PETOSKEY: Yes.

AUDREY CHENG: So definitely. I think before we became a team of about 85 or so, our culture has been fairly organic. We had some values, but over time, they became more outdated for the stage of growth that we were going through. And so I think, this year I've been spending so much more of my time on culture. And before this year I was thinking, OK well, it's pretty organic, people seem happy. I think it's OK.

But I spend a lot more time reading about why culture is so important and how to actually operationalize and move forward with the culture. And so we've been championing a lot of different things around culture champions-- a small working group among our team and that really are constantly thinking about our values-- how we define them, how they show up in our behaviors, how we keep everyone accountable to them. Just thinking about how values show up in almost all meetings. So whether they are team meetings, or management meetings, or all staff meetings-- how we talk about values constantly.

And so I think it's been something that that's been a really setting learning experience and seeing more and more people on our team talking about values and just more organic conversations. I think it's been really, really positive. And so again. It's not something that we've fully figured out yet. But I think we're making the right steps.

CASSIE PETOSKEY: That's really great. And Audrey, it seems like there are a number of different aspects to your identity that have impacted your career. And I'm curious from your perspective, how have those identities impacted your career more broadly?

AUDREY CHENG: So I would say one of the biggest parts my identity is around-- I think for one is that my parents are from Taiwan. And so I guess being first generation in the US has been really interesting for me. Because always kind of understanding this dynamic of my own identity, how that fits in, and how that doesn't fit in, and how to be OK with that. And so I think that's been really impactful for me.

Because having spent some time in Taiwan growing up, going to a school like Northwestern that has a ton of diversity, I think it kind of set me up for being able to kind of operate in a new context and just ask a lot of questions and learning instead of judging. And so I think that that's been really big for me.

I think the other part, like I mentioned before, is around growing up Buddhist. That's had just massive impacts on my mental health, but also my ability to navigate ambiguity. And so what we always talk about is this idea of impermanence, how things are constantly changing. Then we talk about this idea around ego and about how it's a man-made concept. And so how do we understand our ego? How do we understand our feelings and thoughts and how they aren't who we are?

I think a lot of those frameworks and concepts have been really helpful as I'm interacting with people of different backgrounds. Our team is from probably seven or eight countries now. And so I think it's having a very exciting, diverse, creative workforce and understanding how to have empathy, compassion, but still be ambitious at the same time.

CASSIE PETOSKEY: Yeah, that's really great. And it's so interesting how the dynamics between those various identities have made you the individual and leader that you are today, which is great. And it seems like from your parents, from mentors, professors, some of the people you've mentioned-- do you have a lot of key people in your life that have left an impact? And I'm curious what types of advice have you received from those folks that have really stuck with you throughout.

AUDREY CHENG: Yeah, absolutely. So I think one piece of advice that is very simple, but I think that it's always stuck with me is around just staying focused. And so the way that that's come out for me is, it could be in the way that I'm growing Moringa. It could be in the way that I'm spending my time.

But I got this piece of advice from the managing partner of the venture fund that I was working for in Kenya. His observation was that there's so many companies in Kenya that are trying to do so many different things. They're really distracted, they're saying oh, we're going to offer to our customer, also do this, and we're going to do 10 things but not really do anything well. Versus how do you actually become a master of your craft?

And so I think that's been really interesting for me is, how much of an impact that's had on me personally, but also on the business. Staying focused means that we're saying no to many things, even if they seem like great opportunities. They might just be short one-off deals instead of long-term growth. And so keeping very focused on the work side of how do we make decisions that will be able to impact the long-term growth of the company.

And I think personally for me, a lot of the reflections around focus have been on not trying to do too many things. So in my social life, in my love life, in my family life-- all parts of my life-- just reminding myself that I need to be clear on what I can commit to, what I can give energy to, and that I shouldn't have to say yes to everything.

CASSIE PETOSKEY: Yeah that's such a great message-- not having to say yes to everything. Because I feel as if on Northwestern's campus, there's just so much activity. There's so much going on. And there's this pressure to do it all. And it's such a great message for students and alumni who, you're working through those first few years out where you're feeling like you need to do everything and say yes to everything. And that's not always the case. Sometimes you can say no to say yes to something else.

Audrey, I'm curious too. You've had so many great insights that you've shared today. Do you have any specific insights for students, graduating seniors, recent alumni, on how to pave their way and to take the initiative that you clearly have in your own career?

AUDREY CHENG: Yeah, so I was actually just listening to this podcast this morning that really resonated with me. And it's Reid Hoffman's podcast about startups, et cetera. And so the whole theme was around taking risks, but being smart while doing it. And so I think that really resonated with me because there's just a very conventional path that a lot of Northwestern students or graduates can go down, whether it's consulting, it's a tech job, or it's finance.

But for me, the best part of my Northwestern experience was when I actually left campus. When I went out and I really interacted more with the real world and understood how else can I redefine success? If the population was saying, hey, the way that you define success is having one of these jobs, that's fine. But what are things that I care about? And what are things that I want to do that will make me feel happy, joyful, and successful?

And so I did spend some time when I was at Northwestern doing some of those activities around things that actually brought me joy. And so again, taking risks, and being smart about it, and making sure that it aligns with your personal values, not society's values.

CASSIE PETOSKEY: Yeah, and really giving yourself time and attention to exploring what it is that you enjoy. That just seems like such a great message for young people. And taking time to explore versus finding a path and getting on it. Because I feel like so often, here's the career path, when really it's more of this journey from experiences. And all of your experiences that you had have guided you towards something that you really care about, which is just great.

And Audrey, it's been so great hearing your insights and learning more about your career journey and what you're doing now at the Moringa School. I'd love to give you a minute or two if you have any other advice or insights that you have for the broader Northwestern network, considering the alumni base of over 200 and some thousand folks out there at different stages in their career. What insights have you gathered from your experiences that might be impactful for that broad variety of folks?

AUDREY CHENG: Yeah, definitely. So I think that there was one framework that I learned at Northwestern that has really still stuck with me. And I share this with our students. I share this with our alumni as well. But I think it's just this idea of unintentionality. So doing something that pays well, doing something that you're passionate about, and then doing something that you're good at. I think just finding an intersection between those three circles is just one of the most powerful things that we can do for ourselves.

Because for example, as a developer, if you're really good at software development, you're really passionate about the role of tech in the changing world and also on building these products. And then maybe on the other end, just being passionate about changing the world. It's just finding a convergence of those three. I think it's just really powerful.

And so I think it's something that I check in on myself every year as well. Am I am I still doing the things that kind of intersect in those circles? And I think by staying true to that, it's just allowed me to grow a ton, but also do the things I really love.

CASSIE PETOSKEY: Yeah, that's great-- finding the convergence of the three and also, I love how you check in on it yearly to know, OK, is this still what is right for me? Is this still working? What do I enjoy? That's such a great reminder because that self-reflection-- so often you get into the nitty gritty of starting an organization. It could be five years down the road and you're like, oh my gosh, what a whirlwind. But to have that time for reflection just seems like it's been invaluable for you.

So Audrey, it's been so great picking your brain. Thank you so much for sharing all these great insights. And thank you for being here with us today.

AUDREY CHENG: Definitely. And thank you so much. It was great to be on the podcast.

CASSIE PETOSKEY: Thank you for tuning into today's episode of Northwestern Intersections. To find more information about the podcast, please visit northwestern.edu/intersections. That is northwestern.edu/intersections. Have a great rest of your day and go Cats.