About this Episode
Episode Episode 144: Published on Nov 16, 2023
Jackson, an author, playwright, and poet, shares her creative trajectory and the sights, smells, and sounds of Chicago that influenced some of her most recognizable projects.
Chicago through Poetry, with Angela Jackson ’77
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MAX: Welcome back to Northwestern Intersections, a Northwestern Alumni Association podcast. We'll be talking to alums about their career paths and the lessons they've learned along the way. Our guest today is Angela Jackson, author and poet laureate for the state of Illinois.
Much of her award-winning writing touches on her experiences as a Chicagoan, often revolving around the sights, sounds, and smells of her neighborhood. She brings invaluable insights on the world of creative writing and self-expression through poetry. We will dive into all of these topics and more in this edition of Northwestern Intersections.
Angela Jackson, thank you so much for joining us.
ANGELA JACKSON: Thank you. It's my pleasure to be with you.
MAX: So I have a lot of different questions for you today, but I want to start thinking about your time at Northwestern. Why did you decide to come to Northwestern and what did you study in college?
ANGELA JACKSON: I was on my way to Saint Xavier's College, a women's college on the southwest side. Because my sister Rose went there, and one day in the office-- I worked in the office at Loretto Academy-- I was working, and I was telling Mother Mary that I had gotten a letter from Northwestern recruiting Black students, and they were interested in me. And she told me very emphatically, you have to go to Northwestern and compete with the guys. I said, OK.
And that's when I decided to go to Northwestern, so that I could compete with the guys. [LAUGHS] My parents were very excited about me going to Northwestern, because they knew it was such a good school. So I even remember the day we drove up to Northwestern, how excited my father was. It was very exciting in my family.
You have to remember, this was 1968, and integration was just starting. As a matter of fact, I went to Northwestern in June of '68 into a program called Newcap, because they were trying to integrate Black students and white students and getting us accustomed to a college atmosphere. And Newcap was the program that we entered into.
And once I studied there, I was studying calculus, chemistry, biology, because I went as a pre-med student. Because that was something that my parents were excited about-- me being pre-med. And I wanted to be pre-med, too, because I had read Lorraine Hansberry's A Raisin in the Sun, and Beneatha wanted to be pre-med.
And now, when I was 10, I wanted to be a writer, but I forgot that, because my parents weren't interested in that. So when I was 13, I wanted to be a doctor. So I took chemistry, calculus, biology, and did not do well at all.
All I wanted to do was write, in my blue gray notebook, poems, poems, all the time. Poems. So this was reflected in my grades. Sooner or later, as I evolved, all I did was want to take English classes.
So I took English classes, and very shortly thereafter, I was an English major. As an English major, I studied poetry. I remember reading 77 Dream Songs, and I was so fascinated by that book. Because I found it to be-- the poems were so racist, and I was objecting to so much of the racism in the work of the poets.
But the thing was, the poet teachers that I had understood, and that was Peter Michaelson and Elliot Anderson. So I had really good poet teachers. Now, my friend, Rowella, my roommate, suggested that-- in sophomore year, there was a Black teacher, an editor named Hoyt Fuller.
Now, I had Margaret Walker for African-American Literature in my freshman year. That was super exciting. And I would remember that later when she read her poem, "For My People." And this past-- a few years ago, I wrote a poem, "For Our People," that was a response to her poem.
Anyway, Rowella suggested that I show my poems to the editor, Hoyt Fuller, who was the editor of Negro Digest, which would be renamed Black World. So I met him after his class, and I showed him my gray notebook.
And he accepted the poems, and he kept them for a few weeks. And he read them, and he told me that I had talent, and I should come to the OBAC writers' workshop on the South Side. And in October of 1969, I went to OBAC, and I went every week and read my poetry and studied there with Don L. Lee, who became Haki Madhubuti, and Carolyn Rogers, and a lot of other poets who were Black like me. So I studied poetry at Northwestern, and also on the South Side of Chicago, so I got a two-pronged education in poetry.
MAX: It sounds like you were really interested in poetry, straight away from it a little bit, but it really came back and found you during college. Did you ever anticipate doing anything else for a living once you found poetry? Or were you-- straight through, did you always know you were going to be a poet at that point?
ANGELA JACKSON: The thing is, you can't just be a poet. I always knew I had to have another job. So I was a lab tech from 1971 to '74 at Rush-Presbyterian-St. Luke Hospital.
But-- and I didn't graduate straight through. I didn't graduate until '77, because I fooled around, and all I wanted to do was write. And I said, well, I'm writing. Why do I need to graduate?
So in '76, I was a secretary at the YWCA of Metropolitan Chicago, and '76, I decided I didn't want to just be a secretary. So I had two more classes to take, and I would leave work on Wabash and walk over to Michigan and take the bus and go down to Northwestern Downtown, and I took my last two classes downtown.
And I remember, once I had finished the classes, Mrs. Apel called me, and she said, Angela-- you know, they all knew me-- the crazy Black girl who refused to-- who refused to graduate. [LAUGHS] They said, Angela, do you want your diploma to be from downtown or Evanston? I said, Evanston. Because I studied mostly in Evanston, except for those last two classes.
And my one regret in life-- oh, I have several, but my major regret was that I did not march after I graduated. Because I cheated my parents of that, you know. I know that they wanted that. They didn't even know I had graduated. You know, I was too cool to graduate, and I still regretted that, that I did not march for them. Because that was their victory.
MAX: When it comes to the content of your poems, you've done a lot that has to do with your experiences, both being in college, being in Chicago. How do you find inspiration? And for someone who might want to become a writer, what does your creative process look like?
ANGELA JACKSON: I write a lot about family. I was just thinking about going on a trip to Mississippi with friends, "Mississippi Summer," going down south and spending the whole summer down south, the death of my sister, [INAUDIBLE], and mourning her death, watching my father say his prayers along the side of the bed.
"The Fabric of Our Lives," growing up on and playing on the street in Chicago; "Elam House," our house in Chicago, a photograph that we took, my parents took, in front of our house-- "A Thousand Pages," about Emmett Till, "The Red Line is the Soul Train," "Ida Watches," "American Justice," and that's all from It Seems Like a Mighty Long Time.
And this latest book, More Than Meat and Raiment, is a story-- the story of my family coming from Mississippi and settling here in Chicago. And then, there's an African story that's retold, and then there are just poems about everything. "And All These Roads Be Luminous"-- strolling, where I'm walking down the street with my mother and my nephew, Max. He was a baby.
"The Love of Travelers," that's about the road trip. "Why I Must Make Language," in memory of Saint Charles lwanga "Faith Community," that's about midnight mass. There about living in Chicago, and mainly, because I've mostly lived in Chicago. I lived in D.C. For a little while, but I don't remember anything, any poems out of that. And I lived in Missouri for a couple of years teaching, but mostly it's Chicago that I've lived in.
MAX: You alluded to it a little bit earlier, but what is that community of poets like? And what does that community mean to you?
ANGELA JACKSON: There is a community of African-American poets. And when said I walked into [INAUDIBLE] in October of 1969, I was walking into that community. And it's a community of not just poets, but cultural workers out of Muntu Dancers and artisans and but that's in Chicago. And nationwide, there is a community of African-American poets in Cave Canem.
They just put out a book called Black Girl Magic. They gave me a big shout-out performance where they read my work at the Logan Center. And I didn't even know they knew me, but they did. And it was really overwhelming. But you know that, this isn't-- it's not unusual because well, poets tend to be like that, to travel in pacts and generationally and keep track of each other. And poets also tend to travel in cliques. Poets don't always like each other, so I know that.
MAX: You've obviously written books and tons of poems, but when you are a reader or an observer, in your mind what makes a great poem? What makes a memorable poem?
ANGELA JACKSON: A physical reaction, I feel it. It's a gasp, or a shudder or I want to weep or it's just a physical reaction of some kind.
MAX: What do you think is the most meaningful poem you've ever read? And what's the most meaningful poem you've ever written?
ANGELA JACKSON: I can't say the most meaningful poem I've ever read, because there are so many poems that are so important to me, like Gwendolyn Brooks, "Sermon on the Mount," Margaret Walker, all the Gwendolyn Brooks, Margaret Walker, "For my People." That's just a few. There are just so many wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, poets that I can't say.
For my own work, the poem that makes me happiest now is "For our People." It captures so much of my feelings about black people and all people.
MAX: I'm really curious, because being a poet, seeing Amanda Gorman at President Biden's inauguration. It was really a great moment for poetry. A lot of people were talking about it. I think it brought a lot of attention to poetry. What was it like after seeing that for you? Did you notice that there was more attention around poetry? Were more people asking you questions about it?
ANGELA JACKSON: Oh, yes. There were far more people interested in poetry after hearing Amanda Gorman read. Yes.
MAX: And for those of our listeners who might not know, what is the process like for becoming a poet laureate? And what are the responsibilities that you have as poet laureate, the fifth poet laureate of Illinois?
ANGELA JACKSON: The poet laureate of Illinois was chosen by a group of scholars, critics, poets, cultural workers from all over the state of Illinois. With the help of my able assistant, we do a lot of things. We give out prizes for college students and senior citizens. And we're trying to give some to seniors in high school, but we're not getting that much response.
And we also-- I do a lot of readings. I judge content. I selected four ambassadors of poetry to go around and do residencies. And I wrote a grant to pay them. And also, when the grant ran out, we had to scramble around and try to get some more money to pay them. I was one of those who helped make the Chicago poet laureate. And I'm good friends with the Chicago poet laureate.
MAX: I also wanted to ask you, because this is obviously an incredible honor to be the poet laureate. What is your proudest moment or what is the most important thing you think you've done in your career and your life?
ANGELA JACKSON: Oh, boy, was winning the Ruth Lily Award and also being poet laureate of Illinois. And when I had a play performed at the Midwest Black Theater Alliance on the south side. And the play was Shango Diaspora. And the audience was overwhelmed. And they asked, who are your people? And my mother stood up and they applauded my mother. That was a stupendous moment for me.
MAX: That actually is a perfect transition to my next question. You are an author and a playwright. How do you glean inspiration for the other books that you've written and for the plays that you've written as well?
ANGELA JACKSON: Well, the novels I remember being in Jeff Donaldson's History of African-American Art class. And I remember thinking that I wanted to one day write the story of the other people at the time and the young people and the toughest that time of the of the '60s and the '70s and tell that truth and fight against the lies that were being told about the young people and put forth the positive, truthful images of who we were and we struggle to be.
And that's what I did in two novels. Where I Must Go and Roads, Where there are No Roads. And I'm proud of those books. And I'm proud of my plays. And I'm proud of all of my books of poetry. But the thing is, I have more books of poetry to write. And I just can't figure them out.
I did a biography of Gwendolyn Brooks that I'm proud of, A Surprise Queen in a New Black Sun. I was asked to write it for [INAUDIBLE] Clark from a New York publisher, Ed Beacon. Ed Beacon asked me to write it because it was the 100th celebration of Gwendolyn Brookes' birthday and they needed a book fast. So I wrote it fast. And people were pleased with it.
MAX: You touched on it a little bit on wanting to write more books of poetry. Tell me a little bit about your current work and maybe what are some themes or topics that you're hoping to write more about in the future.
ANGELA JACKSON: I'm hoping to write more about the blues. I wrote a couple of poems about Z.Z. Hill, and a couple of poems about Koko Taylor. So I'd like to write more about the blues.
MAX: Readers who might be interested in these poems and more can check out the Northwestern CATalogue Program, an online book directory where alumni authors can submit their work. I want to ask you a few final questions. And one of them really revolves around the themes of your work. A lot of your writing, as you mentioned, evokes the sensations of living in Chicago. What does being a Chicagoan mean to you?
ANGELA JACKSON: What does being a Chicagoan mean to me? Well, it's where my roots are. It's where my roots are, but it's a whole lot of trouble. Oh, a lot of trouble an stuff. My family, most of my friends, it's where I had a lot of good times growing up.
MAX: What's the best piece of advice that you could give to somebody who might be in a similar position hoping to become a poet or a writer?
ANGELA JACKSON: Don't turn your back on someone too soon. They might be the ones who turns out to be just the one you need.
MAX: For someone who is studying English and poetry or for someone who's never written in their life, just anybody who wants to write, what would you tell them about where to start?
ANGELA JACKSON: Start with Gwendolyn Brooks. I just can't say that enough. Start with Gwendolyn Brooks. And if for an African-American, I would suggest they try to go to Cave Canem. They also have other Fellows of Color. Cave Canem is a great experience. I didn't go to Cave Canem, but I taught at Cave Canem.
And Northwestern has a really good writing program. One of my best friends taught in there for many years, Reginald Gibbons, taught at Northwestern for many years. He just-- he just retired.
MAX: Are there any Northwestern shout outs that you would like to give?
ANGELA JACKSON: Jackie Collins, Reginald Gibbons, Cornelia, [INAUDIBLE], Ayesha Jones, Ann Ganler...all of my friends at the Pratt. Yes.
MAX: And I'll close with my fun question, if you could sit down for a writing session with one writer from history, who would you choose to write with and where would you choose to have your writing session?
ANGELA JACKSON: Langston Hughes. And where would I do? Paris.
MAX: I think those are two very good picks. Angela Jackson, thank you so much for joining us.
ANGELA JACKSON: Thank you.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Much of her award-winning writing touches on her experiences as a Chicagoan, often revolving around the sights, sounds, and smells of her neighborhood. She brings invaluable insights on the world of creative writing and self-expression through poetry. We will dive into all of these topics and more in this edition of Northwestern Intersections.
Angela Jackson, thank you so much for joining us.
ANGELA JACKSON: Thank you. It's my pleasure to be with you.
MAX: So I have a lot of different questions for you today, but I want to start thinking about your time at Northwestern. Why did you decide to come to Northwestern and what did you study in college?
ANGELA JACKSON: I was on my way to Saint Xavier's College, a women's college on the southwest side. Because my sister Rose went there, and one day in the office-- I worked in the office at Loretto Academy-- I was working, and I was telling Mother Mary that I had gotten a letter from Northwestern recruiting Black students, and they were interested in me. And she told me very emphatically, you have to go to Northwestern and compete with the guys. I said, OK.
And that's when I decided to go to Northwestern, so that I could compete with the guys. [LAUGHS] My parents were very excited about me going to Northwestern, because they knew it was such a good school. So I even remember the day we drove up to Northwestern, how excited my father was. It was very exciting in my family.
You have to remember, this was 1968, and integration was just starting. As a matter of fact, I went to Northwestern in June of '68 into a program called Newcap, because they were trying to integrate Black students and white students and getting us accustomed to a college atmosphere. And Newcap was the program that we entered into.
And once I studied there, I was studying calculus, chemistry, biology, because I went as a pre-med student. Because that was something that my parents were excited about-- me being pre-med. And I wanted to be pre-med, too, because I had read Lorraine Hansberry's A Raisin in the Sun, and Beneatha wanted to be pre-med.
And now, when I was 10, I wanted to be a writer, but I forgot that, because my parents weren't interested in that. So when I was 13, I wanted to be a doctor. So I took chemistry, calculus, biology, and did not do well at all.
All I wanted to do was write, in my blue gray notebook, poems, poems, all the time. Poems. So this was reflected in my grades. Sooner or later, as I evolved, all I did was want to take English classes.
So I took English classes, and very shortly thereafter, I was an English major. As an English major, I studied poetry. I remember reading 77 Dream Songs, and I was so fascinated by that book. Because I found it to be-- the poems were so racist, and I was objecting to so much of the racism in the work of the poets.
But the thing was, the poet teachers that I had understood, and that was Peter Michaelson and Elliot Anderson. So I had really good poet teachers. Now, my friend, Rowella, my roommate, suggested that-- in sophomore year, there was a Black teacher, an editor named Hoyt Fuller.
Now, I had Margaret Walker for African-American Literature in my freshman year. That was super exciting. And I would remember that later when she read her poem, "For My People." And this past-- a few years ago, I wrote a poem, "For Our People," that was a response to her poem.
Anyway, Rowella suggested that I show my poems to the editor, Hoyt Fuller, who was the editor of Negro Digest, which would be renamed Black World. So I met him after his class, and I showed him my gray notebook.
And he accepted the poems, and he kept them for a few weeks. And he read them, and he told me that I had talent, and I should come to the OBAC writers' workshop on the South Side. And in October of 1969, I went to OBAC, and I went every week and read my poetry and studied there with Don L. Lee, who became Haki Madhubuti, and Carolyn Rogers, and a lot of other poets who were Black like me. So I studied poetry at Northwestern, and also on the South Side of Chicago, so I got a two-pronged education in poetry.
MAX: It sounds like you were really interested in poetry, straight away from it a little bit, but it really came back and found you during college. Did you ever anticipate doing anything else for a living once you found poetry? Or were you-- straight through, did you always know you were going to be a poet at that point?
ANGELA JACKSON: The thing is, you can't just be a poet. I always knew I had to have another job. So I was a lab tech from 1971 to '74 at Rush-Presbyterian-St. Luke Hospital.
But-- and I didn't graduate straight through. I didn't graduate until '77, because I fooled around, and all I wanted to do was write. And I said, well, I'm writing. Why do I need to graduate?
So in '76, I was a secretary at the YWCA of Metropolitan Chicago, and '76, I decided I didn't want to just be a secretary. So I had two more classes to take, and I would leave work on Wabash and walk over to Michigan and take the bus and go down to Northwestern Downtown, and I took my last two classes downtown.
And I remember, once I had finished the classes, Mrs. Apel called me, and she said, Angela-- you know, they all knew me-- the crazy Black girl who refused to-- who refused to graduate. [LAUGHS] They said, Angela, do you want your diploma to be from downtown or Evanston? I said, Evanston. Because I studied mostly in Evanston, except for those last two classes.
And my one regret in life-- oh, I have several, but my major regret was that I did not march after I graduated. Because I cheated my parents of that, you know. I know that they wanted that. They didn't even know I had graduated. You know, I was too cool to graduate, and I still regretted that, that I did not march for them. Because that was their victory.
MAX: When it comes to the content of your poems, you've done a lot that has to do with your experiences, both being in college, being in Chicago. How do you find inspiration? And for someone who might want to become a writer, what does your creative process look like?
ANGELA JACKSON: I write a lot about family. I was just thinking about going on a trip to Mississippi with friends, "Mississippi Summer," going down south and spending the whole summer down south, the death of my sister, [INAUDIBLE], and mourning her death, watching my father say his prayers along the side of the bed.
"The Fabric of Our Lives," growing up on and playing on the street in Chicago; "Elam House," our house in Chicago, a photograph that we took, my parents took, in front of our house-- "A Thousand Pages," about Emmett Till, "The Red Line is the Soul Train," "Ida Watches," "American Justice," and that's all from It Seems Like a Mighty Long Time.
And this latest book, More Than Meat and Raiment, is a story-- the story of my family coming from Mississippi and settling here in Chicago. And then, there's an African story that's retold, and then there are just poems about everything. "And All These Roads Be Luminous"-- strolling, where I'm walking down the street with my mother and my nephew, Max. He was a baby.
"The Love of Travelers," that's about the road trip. "Why I Must Make Language," in memory of Saint Charles lwanga "Faith Community," that's about midnight mass. There about living in Chicago, and mainly, because I've mostly lived in Chicago. I lived in D.C. For a little while, but I don't remember anything, any poems out of that. And I lived in Missouri for a couple of years teaching, but mostly it's Chicago that I've lived in.
MAX: You alluded to it a little bit earlier, but what is that community of poets like? And what does that community mean to you?
ANGELA JACKSON: There is a community of African-American poets. And when said I walked into [INAUDIBLE] in October of 1969, I was walking into that community. And it's a community of not just poets, but cultural workers out of Muntu Dancers and artisans and but that's in Chicago. And nationwide, there is a community of African-American poets in Cave Canem.
They just put out a book called Black Girl Magic. They gave me a big shout-out performance where they read my work at the Logan Center. And I didn't even know they knew me, but they did. And it was really overwhelming. But you know that, this isn't-- it's not unusual because well, poets tend to be like that, to travel in pacts and generationally and keep track of each other. And poets also tend to travel in cliques. Poets don't always like each other, so I know that.
MAX: You've obviously written books and tons of poems, but when you are a reader or an observer, in your mind what makes a great poem? What makes a memorable poem?
ANGELA JACKSON: A physical reaction, I feel it. It's a gasp, or a shudder or I want to weep or it's just a physical reaction of some kind.
MAX: What do you think is the most meaningful poem you've ever read? And what's the most meaningful poem you've ever written?
ANGELA JACKSON: I can't say the most meaningful poem I've ever read, because there are so many poems that are so important to me, like Gwendolyn Brooks, "Sermon on the Mount," Margaret Walker, all the Gwendolyn Brooks, Margaret Walker, "For my People." That's just a few. There are just so many wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, poets that I can't say.
For my own work, the poem that makes me happiest now is "For our People." It captures so much of my feelings about black people and all people.
MAX: I'm really curious, because being a poet, seeing Amanda Gorman at President Biden's inauguration. It was really a great moment for poetry. A lot of people were talking about it. I think it brought a lot of attention to poetry. What was it like after seeing that for you? Did you notice that there was more attention around poetry? Were more people asking you questions about it?
ANGELA JACKSON: Oh, yes. There were far more people interested in poetry after hearing Amanda Gorman read. Yes.
MAX: And for those of our listeners who might not know, what is the process like for becoming a poet laureate? And what are the responsibilities that you have as poet laureate, the fifth poet laureate of Illinois?
ANGELA JACKSON: The poet laureate of Illinois was chosen by a group of scholars, critics, poets, cultural workers from all over the state of Illinois. With the help of my able assistant, we do a lot of things. We give out prizes for college students and senior citizens. And we're trying to give some to seniors in high school, but we're not getting that much response.
And we also-- I do a lot of readings. I judge content. I selected four ambassadors of poetry to go around and do residencies. And I wrote a grant to pay them. And also, when the grant ran out, we had to scramble around and try to get some more money to pay them. I was one of those who helped make the Chicago poet laureate. And I'm good friends with the Chicago poet laureate.
MAX: I also wanted to ask you, because this is obviously an incredible honor to be the poet laureate. What is your proudest moment or what is the most important thing you think you've done in your career and your life?
ANGELA JACKSON: Oh, boy, was winning the Ruth Lily Award and also being poet laureate of Illinois. And when I had a play performed at the Midwest Black Theater Alliance on the south side. And the play was Shango Diaspora. And the audience was overwhelmed. And they asked, who are your people? And my mother stood up and they applauded my mother. That was a stupendous moment for me.
MAX: That actually is a perfect transition to my next question. You are an author and a playwright. How do you glean inspiration for the other books that you've written and for the plays that you've written as well?
ANGELA JACKSON: Well, the novels I remember being in Jeff Donaldson's History of African-American Art class. And I remember thinking that I wanted to one day write the story of the other people at the time and the young people and the toughest that time of the of the '60s and the '70s and tell that truth and fight against the lies that were being told about the young people and put forth the positive, truthful images of who we were and we struggle to be.
And that's what I did in two novels. Where I Must Go and Roads, Where there are No Roads. And I'm proud of those books. And I'm proud of my plays. And I'm proud of all of my books of poetry. But the thing is, I have more books of poetry to write. And I just can't figure them out.
I did a biography of Gwendolyn Brooks that I'm proud of, A Surprise Queen in a New Black Sun. I was asked to write it for [INAUDIBLE] Clark from a New York publisher, Ed Beacon. Ed Beacon asked me to write it because it was the 100th celebration of Gwendolyn Brookes' birthday and they needed a book fast. So I wrote it fast. And people were pleased with it.
MAX: You touched on it a little bit on wanting to write more books of poetry. Tell me a little bit about your current work and maybe what are some themes or topics that you're hoping to write more about in the future.
ANGELA JACKSON: I'm hoping to write more about the blues. I wrote a couple of poems about Z.Z. Hill, and a couple of poems about Koko Taylor. So I'd like to write more about the blues.
MAX: Readers who might be interested in these poems and more can check out the Northwestern CATalogue Program, an online book directory where alumni authors can submit their work. I want to ask you a few final questions. And one of them really revolves around the themes of your work. A lot of your writing, as you mentioned, evokes the sensations of living in Chicago. What does being a Chicagoan mean to you?
ANGELA JACKSON: What does being a Chicagoan mean to me? Well, it's where my roots are. It's where my roots are, but it's a whole lot of trouble. Oh, a lot of trouble an stuff. My family, most of my friends, it's where I had a lot of good times growing up.
MAX: What's the best piece of advice that you could give to somebody who might be in a similar position hoping to become a poet or a writer?
ANGELA JACKSON: Don't turn your back on someone too soon. They might be the ones who turns out to be just the one you need.
MAX: For someone who is studying English and poetry or for someone who's never written in their life, just anybody who wants to write, what would you tell them about where to start?
ANGELA JACKSON: Start with Gwendolyn Brooks. I just can't say that enough. Start with Gwendolyn Brooks. And if for an African-American, I would suggest they try to go to Cave Canem. They also have other Fellows of Color. Cave Canem is a great experience. I didn't go to Cave Canem, but I taught at Cave Canem.
And Northwestern has a really good writing program. One of my best friends taught in there for many years, Reginald Gibbons, taught at Northwestern for many years. He just-- he just retired.
MAX: Are there any Northwestern shout outs that you would like to give?
ANGELA JACKSON: Jackie Collins, Reginald Gibbons, Cornelia, [INAUDIBLE], Ayesha Jones, Ann Ganler...all of my friends at the Pratt. Yes.
MAX: And I'll close with my fun question, if you could sit down for a writing session with one writer from history, who would you choose to write with and where would you choose to have your writing session?
ANGELA JACKSON: Langston Hughes. And where would I do? Paris.
MAX: I think those are two very good picks. Angela Jackson, thank you so much for joining us.
ANGELA JACKSON: Thank you.
[MUSIC PLAYING]