About this Episode
Episode Episode 145: Published on Dec 7, 2023
Join us as Gallagher talks about her time in Hollywood and how she found the inspiration for her Twist My Charm young adult book series.
Writing Your Reality (TV), with Toni Gallagher ’87
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[MUSIC PLAYING] MAX: Welcome back to Northwestern Intersections, a Northwestern Alumni Association podcast. We'll be talking to alums about their career paths and the lessons they've learned along the way. Our guest today is TONI, a television producer and middle grade author. Much of her work has been in reality TV, including memorable projects like The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills and Married at First Sight.
She has also authored her own young adult series titled Twist My Charm, and she brings incredible stories from the worlds of Hollywood and fiction writing. We will dive into all of these topics and more in this edition of Northwestern Intersections. TONI, thank you so much for being on the show.
TONI: Thank you for the intro. Thanks for having me.
MAX: Absolutely. So I have a lot of questions for you. You've had two extremely interesting career paths, but let's first look back at your time at Northwestern. What brought you to Evanston, and what did you study?
TONI: I have wanted to be a writer ever since I was a little kid and wrote the five tiny people who lived in the wash basket. So going through high school, I was on the newspaper. I wrote stories. I wrote plays. I wrote probably even screenplays back then. I can't remember.
But when it came time to decide where to go to college, I thought, well, I could really write screenplays or write for TV. I can teach myself that. But if I want to get a job in journalism, where in the world should I go but Northwestern?
I grew up in Philadelphia, but I went to high school in Ohio. So going to Chicago didn't seem like that big of a jump. And I got in, which I don't think I would nowadays. But that's why I chose Northwestern, journalism. So I was in the Medill School.
MAX: And after you graduated, you had a couple pretty crazy first jobs, I would say, in Hollywood. Talk to me about how you got involved in those positions.
TONI: Yeah, all of my friends were going to their well-paid, quote, unquote, "real jobs." And as far as I knew, I was one of the few people of my year that just got in the car and drove across the country to Los Angeles where she didn't know anyone in the business really. But I wrote a pretty good cover letter, introductory letter looking for jobs.
And my first job was at Gracie Films, which was producing at the time The Tracey Ullman Show, and during my time there started working on The Simpsons. So kind of a crazy first job to have. I was a production assistant, which meant I did anything anybody asked. Yeah, and the movie Broadcast News was being made at that time. Cameron Crowe was making Say Anything at that time. So it was a pretty cool time to be there.
MAX: What was it like getting to see a show like The Simpsons in its early, early days?
TONI: Oh my gosh, it was so great because coming from Northwestern, I would read the Chicago Reader, which I think still exists. And Matt Groening had the cartoon Life in Hell, which was one of the best things about the Chicago Reader. And then The Simpsons started as a interstitial little cartoons during The Tracey Ullman Show.
So when I went to a premiere party for The Tracey Ullman Show at Spago, a restaurant name that some people still know, I was the one sitting with Matt Groening and his wife talking about Life in Hell. It was pretty awesome. So that was kind of the best part of The Tracey Ullman Show was becoming kind of friendly with Matt Groening.
MAX: And I also understand you were on Amblin, Steven Spielberg's company, and then eventually The Real World, which some people would say the first reality TV show. How did you make the transition into those different projects?
TONI: Yeah, from Gracie Films and The Tracey Ullman Show, my next job was Steven Spielberg's company Amblin, which was-- I couldn't believe it. I mean, he was my childhood hero. And here I was getting to actually read scripts and comment on them for Steven Spielberg. Now he was off filming Indiana Jones 3.
So I only met him, I think, once. I saw him and George Lucas walk down the hall together one time. And my knees went weak. But I didn't know any better honestly.
And I wanted to write and after working there for a year in the office I read scripts off like on my own, freelance for them for about another year while I worked on my own writing career. And then I think it was during that time that the first season of The Real World on MTV aired. And I was such a fan because I loved, well, journalism. And I loved-- I loved documentaries. Edit this part out. I loved documentaries, and I love soap operas.
And The Real World was the combination of the two. And I didn't know how they did it or how they put it together. But, again, I write a good letter. I wrote a good cold letter and said, I would love to do anything for this show.
So when The Real World called me, I actually went in not knowing whether I was interviewing to be on the show or to work on the show. And I was ready for either one. So I just dressed just cute enough to be on the show. But when I got there, I realized they were interviewing me to work behind the scenes, which was also great.
And at the time, I thought, well, this is a fun job for a year or two or it ends up being I think four or five years. But I still thought, what am I really going to do for a career? Because here's this little thing. I mean, it was the only reality show until almost 2000, I think. So aside from home and garden and things like that. So, Yeah, I started in reality TV at the very, very beginning and had no idea it would be a now seriously 30-year career.
MAX: What a place to start. I mean, The Real World, you hear about it and you think, OK, that's kind of what brought about all of these different shows. And you've gotten to work on a lot of them, The Real Housewives, Married at First Sight. When did you realize that you were going to stick around in the reality TV genre or was there a specific project that you worked on where you said, OK, I think I can make a career out of this?
TONI: Gosh, I'm not sure if I have the right answer for that. But I know I left The Real World, I did three seasons, seasons 2, 3, and 4. And then I thought I've, had enough of this. Remember I always wanted to be a writer. We'll keep going back to that I'm sure. So I think I said, I'm done. I'm going to take some time off to write.
And then the company Bunim/Murray Productions ended up asking me to come back and work on the show Road Rules, which was just sort of the spin off of The Real World. So I think I did that for another year or two. And I went, wait a second, there are now other jobs out there.
So in 1999, I worked on a Travel Channel show, which I thought, again, dream job. I didn't get to travel anywhere that exciting. But I did get to travel and work on a Travel Channel show for about a year. So after a year at the Travel Channel show, it did not come back again for another season. But I had already been offered previously a job on a show for the Disney Channel called Bug Juice about real kids at summer camp, which ended up being one of my favorite shows I've ever worked on and also helped my writing career many, many years later when I ended up writing about kids.
So after that, I guess I wasn't really-- I mean, I was still writing in my free time. But I was like, maybe this really could be a career. Again, no idea it would last 30 years. But it looked like something that would keep on going.
MAX: So I also want to ask you-- obviously, reality TV, famous for the drama and sort of the explosive nature of the characters, of the plot. What's it like behind the scenes working with not just the producers but all of the different personalities in the show?
TONI: In a lot of the jobs I've had, I have been very lucky that I have worked in post that we were just talking about. I've managed to do most of my reality TV career really behind the scenes. That said, I have met a lot of them. Some of them have kind of become friends or at least friendly. Was walking through the airport with my husband a year or two ago.
And I saw Lisa Rinna, the famous Beverly Hills Housewife an actress walking toward us. And we passed in this big empty hallway. And I went Lisa Rinna. And she turned around thinking I was just a fan. And I said it's Toni from the show. And I'd already been gone from the show for a year or two. And she was like, oh my gosh, we miss you.
So really, really fun. My husband got a kick out of meeting her husband Harry Hamlin at a party. And I've also gotten to be-- I don't know if people out there watch Watch What Happens Live on Bravo, which Andy Cohen hosts, but I got to be the guest bartender on his show twice in order to promote my two books.
So I have been lucky. I've had very close friends who have had to deal with the drama of Housewives day to day. But, luckily, I have avoided that for most of my career.
MAX: I also really want to hear about Married at First Sight. You've gotten to work a lot in that project. What exactly did you do for that show, and how did you get involved in what was really a project that had a lot of buzz around it?
TONI: Yeah, Married at first Sight to my surprise when I interviewed to work on it had been around for-- it's been around six, seven years. But they make two seasons a year. So they're now on season 18, I think. I think season 17 is airing, and they're on season 18. I worked in three years on seasons 11 through 16. That's a lot of show in a very short amount of time.
And when I first heard of it and started watching it, I thought, oh, it's going to be so cheesy, and terrible, and mean, and exploitive. And when you watch the show, it's actually quite earnest, almost too earnest and very heartfelt. And most of these people really do think this is the way to find a partner.
And people who sniff at the show and think it is cheesy and bad, I say out of probably 75 couples, there are, I think 10, 11, 12 that are still together, almost all of whom have children. That's a hell of a lot better than the bachelor or any of the other dating shows. So as crazy as it is, it's amazing to watch to see these people's hopes either come true or be dashed.
So as much as I went into it kind of with a critical eye, I ended up kind of admiring the show. It moves a little too slowly for me. It's a little too earnest. But it's definitely an interesting sociological experiment. It's interesting to wonder if you meet somebody who fits most of your criteria and you have experts even help you work on it and there's got to be some interaction, could it work? And most of them don't work because they're not willing to work on it.
MAX: That's interesting. That was another one where I saw it and I'm like I have to ask about this because it's such a wild, wild concept. And just hearing Married at First Sight, I think it's just jarring for people to kind of imagine that reality. But hearing that it works for a decent number of people is pretty interesting.
TONI: Yeah, I've had people like say, but they see pictures, right? No, they don't see their pictures. They talk on the phone, right?
No, it's called Married at First Sight. I know the show Love is Blind, which the same company makes is super popular right now. But I always look at it with disdain. Like, hey, at least they get to talk to each other.
MAX: What was the most fun or entertaining of those shows that you've gotten to work on?
TONI: There's no doubt that The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills-- that was seven years of my career. That was definitely a big one. So you would go to a premiere party with them or something like that. And they'd be very civilized and lovely. And I've heard that they are that way when you're filming with them too. So that's a big plus.
MAX: I would imagine that being a producer for a reality TV show is probably a lot different than other genres. Tell me about what it's like to work in reality TV compared to maybe some other projects that you've worked on.
TONI: I think the interesting and actually really fun thing about working in reality TV is that no matter what people say or at least on any of the shows I've worked on, it isn't scripted. It really is like a documentary crew out there following these people. And that doesn't mean we don't say, hey, you guys have to have a dinner party because we know you all hate each other. And you wouldn't normally hang out with people you hate. But that's what reality TV is.
So we shape story, but we don't write it in advance. We wait and see what happens. So that's, I think, what I love about it is being the documentarian. They shoot all this material in the field. You receive it back in post. And you and your team have to go through that and figure out how to best tell the story.
Sometimes it's a little bit out of order. It's never downright incorrect, at least not in the way I've ever produced a show. It's not a lie, but you make it be the most dramatic it can be. And that's what's fun. You're solving these puzzles. And sometimes little beats are missed.
And you have to figure out how to fill that hole and figure out where to act break, figure out where to break a show in half, figure out arc of an entire season. And they're still filming as you're putting the shows together. So you're kind of always on your toes both in the field and in post. And that's really a fun thing about reality TV that's different from scripted TV.
MAX: And it really is massively popular genre. What do you think makes reality TV so appealing? And what's the secret to making a great reality TV show?
TONI: I think even the shows that people think are scripted, the people are still real. They're not playing characters. And I think a lot of them you can relate to, and a lot of them are aspirational or a lot of them are the opposite of aspirational. I don't want to be those people, but boy are they fun to watch.
Hey, I want to have what The Beverly Hills Housewives have maybe. But I don't want their problems. And I don't think that will ever go out of style, watching people live their lives, whether it's something like Duck Dynasty or it's some people who get married at the altar having never met each other before. Just amazing to see people doing these crazy things.
MAX: And my final reality TV question because this one is really just selfish. I'm just so curious. You got to work on a show called Snoop Dogg's Fatherhood, which is a reality comedy about the rapper Snoop Dogg and his life balancing work and family. How did that project come about, and what was it like to work with Snoop Dogg and his family?
TONI: I'm sorry that I'm not going to have a better answer for you Max because I got pulled into that show after they had filmed most of it. But when they filmed it, they were just thinking Snoop Dogg is amusing so we'll just follow him around. And half the time he didn't show up. I wonder what he could have been doing.
So they had all this footage, and they didn't know how to make a show out of it. So that's why I got pulled in to try to figure out how to take the pieces they had and structure it into a show. So I didn't even really meet him. I went to an interview that he did. And I kind of hid in the background and was taking my notes while he was talking because we were trying to get things very quickly. So he is entertaining no matter what he does.
So I'm a Snoop fan. I don't even really know his music, but I love him as a personality. They did two seasons of that show. I wasn't working on the second one. And the same thing happened. They had to pull me in after most of it had been filmed to try to save the day again.
Maybe I shouldn't be saying this, but I hear there might be a little short show about his daughter Cori getting married. And I'm like, wait, little Cori. She was eight years old when I worked on that show. So, yeah, I'll watch and listen to anything that Snoop does.
MAX: I feel like Snoop Dogg is kind of like the rap version of Shaq. They're just everywhere. Everybody loves them. Like you couldn't really fail to make some kind of entertainment out of them. They're just wildly entertaining personalities.
TONI: Endlessly entertaining. And the only difficulty-- really the difficulty with that show was when he wasn't around for most of the time, and we still had to make the show as if he were around a lot. But that's the fun of reality TV. You wouldn't script it that way.
MAX: You could write a book probably just about that. You've obviously written a few books, which I'll ask you about. But we kind of talked before the show about potentially you writing a book about your own life. Do you think that a lot of the Housewives stories are coming from there or what was the inspiration for your autobiography?
[LAUGHTER]
TONI: Gosh, I saw a movie called My Salinger Year, which was about a young woman in the '90s who worked for the literary agency that repped JD Salinger. Then I remembered-- I went, wait, I read that woman's actual book too years ago. And I thought, well, the woman has an arc, which I don't. I have zero arc in my life. But I thought, what could I write that was reminiscent of something like that?
And I thought, well, humorous vignettes about my career. And whether they all come back to I wrote a good letter or how I figured out how to be a producer, which is like being creative and organized and getting things done-- And I started going back through old diaries. And there's Gracie Films and meeting Tracey Ullman and that whole crowd. And then there's Steven Spielberg, my childhood hero come to life in front of me. I told him to pass on the movie Prince of Tides. That's like my big claim to Fame with Steven Spielberg.
And, again, you've got a smile on your face. So maybe that means that that's a good story. I would probably eventually get to Housewives. I guess people really do want to know how that sausage is made. I'm not as interested in it because I've been doing it for so long. So I don't know whether a lot of stories from reality TV will make it into the book or not if I even write it. But it's something fun to play around with.
MAX: We're going to keep an eye out for that book. And if and when it does drop, listeners can keep an eye out on the Northwestern catalog program, an online book directory where alumni authors can submit their work. I also wanted to ask you about the book series that you've written. Tell me about Twist My Charm, what inspired this, and what are your future plans for Twist My Charm?
TONI: The first book that I wrote that got published. And I always like to throw in it got published by Random House, legitimately published by a big house. I was dating a guy who had two kids. My joke about writing for kids is I don't have kids. I don't want kids. I don't like kids, but please buy my book for your kid.
And I'll go to elementary schools. Of course, I won't say that to the kids. And I do love visiting the kids at the elementary schools. But like I'd always had a good voice because I started writing as a kid.
But I was dating a guy who had two kids. And his daughter was playing with this little joke voodoo doll that I had at my house. And she goes I'd like to use this on someone at school. And I said, well, you shouldn't do that. But maybe you could write a story about it. But then I thought, wait a second, maybe I could write a story about it.
And within a weekend, I didn't have the whole thing plotted out, but I thought this is a marketable, fun story idea for kids. I didn't even know what middle grade books were. But they're for kids who are 8 to 12 years old. I just started learning everything I could about children's literature, going to seminars, and taking classes, and reading the books. And I wrote it. I met an agent who of all things was a big fan of Housewives, which didn't hurt. And she managed to not only sell the first book, which was called Twist My Charm-- The Popularity Spell, the one about the voodoo doll.
But I had also smartly as a TV producer left a little open-endedness at the end, a little cliffhanger, in which the character gets a love potion. I didn't know what that book would even be about. It was just a little funny thing at the end of the book. The agent sold a two-book deal. So they are both out and about. They came out in 2015 and 2016.
And I'm super proud of it. And I'm still working on other kids' projects. I have written a few more. And my agent is taking them around. She says middle grade is very slow right now.
So in my free time, I have been taking these two other middle grade books, totally different subjects, and adapting them into screenplays. Who knows? Maybe one of them will become a movie instead of a book.
MAX: Are there any other book genres that you'd like to explore? And then same goes for TV. Are there any other TV or movie genres that you'd like to work in?
TONI: My literary agent has told me that middle grade is my voice. I don't know what that says about my mental capacities or my Northwestern education. But I do write a good middle grade voice.
That said, I have written other kinds of books. One was a rollicking romp through Australia called A Dingo Ate My Sex Life. That one, tried to get it out there. It hasn't gotten any play. If any literary agents are listening, you know where to get-- and then as far as TV not so much.
I feel like I spent a year or two with a business partner trying to get some reality shows on the air. And some got close. And they didn't go through. And I thought I'm happy just being a cog in the wheel of reality TV. I don't need to run my own. I'll run somebody else's show. But I don't really need to sell my own show.
But as far as creative writing in TV or film go, I would love for any of my stories to ultimately be a TV show or a screenplay. And the two kids books that I'm working on now, as I said I'm going to, they're being adapted into screenplays. So that would be my hope is that one of those books becomes a movie. Even after this long in the business, you can still dream.
MAX: Other than the book series and obviously working in TV, are there any other current projects you're working on? What's next for TONI?
TONI: I'm debating what to do in the twilight of my life. It's not a project per se, but my husband's Canadian. So we're thinking about do we want to live there half the year. And, yeah, it's more about-- maybe now it's time for some work-life balance.
MAX: I think you've earned it. I think you've earned it for sure. And in terms of a career retrospective, when you look back on the steps that you took in your career to get involved with all these incredible projects, for a young Northwesterner or really for any of our listeners who are looking to break into Hollywood and break into whether it's screenwriting, being a producer, just being a writer, what's your advice? What are your tips for getting your name out there?
TONI: Yeah, I'm sure breaking in is a lot different now than it was when I left Northwestern and came to Hollywood. But I think the germ of the advice would be the same. It's don't worry about starting at the bottom. You probably will. But once you get your foot in that door, no matter how small the job is, if it's getting Tracey Ullman's dinner, if it's picking up James L. Brooks's laundry, you do it with enthusiasm.
Everybody should like you and want to work with you again. And that's at every level probably for any kind of career but certainly in Hollywood. If you do a good job and people like you, you will probably move up the ladder.
So how you break in now-- with me, it was writing great letters and sending out even cold letters. Now I'm sure it's emails. It's tweet somebody. It's whatever, however you can get in touch, get somebody's eye on you. But be witty, be charming, be smart, and do a good job.
MAX: And I have to ask just because I think this is just a fun question. And a lot of people would be curious. What is your craziest or most memorable Hollywood story or at least what's your craziest Hollywood story that you feel comfortable sharing on a university podcast?
TONI: Boy, now I'm trying to think of what story I would have that wouldn't be good for a university podcast. I mentioned earlier that working at Steven Spielberg's company was one of the highlights and to have my boss say you have to talk to Steven because you're the only one in the office that has read this script. And I was like 22 or 23 years old right out of school. And I had to go tell Steven Spielberg not to make a movie that had some cachet. The Prince of Tides was a very big book. And I was the only one who had read the script.
And then after I told him that, my boss then kind of jokingly said to me, well, when that wins an Oscar, you're going to be in trouble. But what I found out later was that she had told him to pass on Silence of the Lambs, which did win an Oscar. I read later that Spielberg said I really wish my company had given me that script because that was something I would have been interested in. Ha, ha, old boss.
MAX: Final question for you. I always close with just a fun one. If you get the chance to work with one actor or actress on any project, who would you work with and what kind of movie or show would it be for?
TONI: Well, I know your audience isn't going to be able to see me. But I do love myself some Sandy Bullock. I once was on vacation in Nepal at a yoga retreat. And the guy working there said, Toni, you must tell me, you are Sandra Bullock's sister, right? I was like, I can't believe that. I'm so excited that you think that I remind you of Sandra Bullock.
Again, back when I did comedy, I would say if you see me across a loud, smoky bar and you squint your eyes just right and you've had a few drinks, I might be Sandra Bullock's cousin. But I've also always loved her personality. I wrote a romantic comedy as a book and as a screenplay. So, yeah, Sandy Bullock would be my choice, I think.
MAX: I don't think I've ever seen a Sandra Bullock movie that I have not thoroughly enjoyed. So I think that's a good pick.
TONI: She's a delight. She's an American treasure.
MAX: Yeah, she's a treasure. She's a treasure. TONI, thank you so much for joining us.
TONI: Thank you for having me, Max.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
She has also authored her own young adult series titled Twist My Charm, and she brings incredible stories from the worlds of Hollywood and fiction writing. We will dive into all of these topics and more in this edition of Northwestern Intersections. TONI, thank you so much for being on the show.
TONI: Thank you for the intro. Thanks for having me.
MAX: Absolutely. So I have a lot of questions for you. You've had two extremely interesting career paths, but let's first look back at your time at Northwestern. What brought you to Evanston, and what did you study?
TONI: I have wanted to be a writer ever since I was a little kid and wrote the five tiny people who lived in the wash basket. So going through high school, I was on the newspaper. I wrote stories. I wrote plays. I wrote probably even screenplays back then. I can't remember.
But when it came time to decide where to go to college, I thought, well, I could really write screenplays or write for TV. I can teach myself that. But if I want to get a job in journalism, where in the world should I go but Northwestern?
I grew up in Philadelphia, but I went to high school in Ohio. So going to Chicago didn't seem like that big of a jump. And I got in, which I don't think I would nowadays. But that's why I chose Northwestern, journalism. So I was in the Medill School.
MAX: And after you graduated, you had a couple pretty crazy first jobs, I would say, in Hollywood. Talk to me about how you got involved in those positions.
TONI: Yeah, all of my friends were going to their well-paid, quote, unquote, "real jobs." And as far as I knew, I was one of the few people of my year that just got in the car and drove across the country to Los Angeles where she didn't know anyone in the business really. But I wrote a pretty good cover letter, introductory letter looking for jobs.
And my first job was at Gracie Films, which was producing at the time The Tracey Ullman Show, and during my time there started working on The Simpsons. So kind of a crazy first job to have. I was a production assistant, which meant I did anything anybody asked. Yeah, and the movie Broadcast News was being made at that time. Cameron Crowe was making Say Anything at that time. So it was a pretty cool time to be there.
MAX: What was it like getting to see a show like The Simpsons in its early, early days?
TONI: Oh my gosh, it was so great because coming from Northwestern, I would read the Chicago Reader, which I think still exists. And Matt Groening had the cartoon Life in Hell, which was one of the best things about the Chicago Reader. And then The Simpsons started as a interstitial little cartoons during The Tracey Ullman Show.
So when I went to a premiere party for The Tracey Ullman Show at Spago, a restaurant name that some people still know, I was the one sitting with Matt Groening and his wife talking about Life in Hell. It was pretty awesome. So that was kind of the best part of The Tracey Ullman Show was becoming kind of friendly with Matt Groening.
MAX: And I also understand you were on Amblin, Steven Spielberg's company, and then eventually The Real World, which some people would say the first reality TV show. How did you make the transition into those different projects?
TONI: Yeah, from Gracie Films and The Tracey Ullman Show, my next job was Steven Spielberg's company Amblin, which was-- I couldn't believe it. I mean, he was my childhood hero. And here I was getting to actually read scripts and comment on them for Steven Spielberg. Now he was off filming Indiana Jones 3.
So I only met him, I think, once. I saw him and George Lucas walk down the hall together one time. And my knees went weak. But I didn't know any better honestly.
And I wanted to write and after working there for a year in the office I read scripts off like on my own, freelance for them for about another year while I worked on my own writing career. And then I think it was during that time that the first season of The Real World on MTV aired. And I was such a fan because I loved, well, journalism. And I loved-- I loved documentaries. Edit this part out. I loved documentaries, and I love soap operas.
And The Real World was the combination of the two. And I didn't know how they did it or how they put it together. But, again, I write a good letter. I wrote a good cold letter and said, I would love to do anything for this show.
So when The Real World called me, I actually went in not knowing whether I was interviewing to be on the show or to work on the show. And I was ready for either one. So I just dressed just cute enough to be on the show. But when I got there, I realized they were interviewing me to work behind the scenes, which was also great.
And at the time, I thought, well, this is a fun job for a year or two or it ends up being I think four or five years. But I still thought, what am I really going to do for a career? Because here's this little thing. I mean, it was the only reality show until almost 2000, I think. So aside from home and garden and things like that. So, Yeah, I started in reality TV at the very, very beginning and had no idea it would be a now seriously 30-year career.
MAX: What a place to start. I mean, The Real World, you hear about it and you think, OK, that's kind of what brought about all of these different shows. And you've gotten to work on a lot of them, The Real Housewives, Married at First Sight. When did you realize that you were going to stick around in the reality TV genre or was there a specific project that you worked on where you said, OK, I think I can make a career out of this?
TONI: Gosh, I'm not sure if I have the right answer for that. But I know I left The Real World, I did three seasons, seasons 2, 3, and 4. And then I thought I've, had enough of this. Remember I always wanted to be a writer. We'll keep going back to that I'm sure. So I think I said, I'm done. I'm going to take some time off to write.
And then the company Bunim/Murray Productions ended up asking me to come back and work on the show Road Rules, which was just sort of the spin off of The Real World. So I think I did that for another year or two. And I went, wait a second, there are now other jobs out there.
So in 1999, I worked on a Travel Channel show, which I thought, again, dream job. I didn't get to travel anywhere that exciting. But I did get to travel and work on a Travel Channel show for about a year. So after a year at the Travel Channel show, it did not come back again for another season. But I had already been offered previously a job on a show for the Disney Channel called Bug Juice about real kids at summer camp, which ended up being one of my favorite shows I've ever worked on and also helped my writing career many, many years later when I ended up writing about kids.
So after that, I guess I wasn't really-- I mean, I was still writing in my free time. But I was like, maybe this really could be a career. Again, no idea it would last 30 years. But it looked like something that would keep on going.
MAX: So I also want to ask you-- obviously, reality TV, famous for the drama and sort of the explosive nature of the characters, of the plot. What's it like behind the scenes working with not just the producers but all of the different personalities in the show?
TONI: In a lot of the jobs I've had, I have been very lucky that I have worked in post that we were just talking about. I've managed to do most of my reality TV career really behind the scenes. That said, I have met a lot of them. Some of them have kind of become friends or at least friendly. Was walking through the airport with my husband a year or two ago.
And I saw Lisa Rinna, the famous Beverly Hills Housewife an actress walking toward us. And we passed in this big empty hallway. And I went Lisa Rinna. And she turned around thinking I was just a fan. And I said it's Toni from the show. And I'd already been gone from the show for a year or two. And she was like, oh my gosh, we miss you.
So really, really fun. My husband got a kick out of meeting her husband Harry Hamlin at a party. And I've also gotten to be-- I don't know if people out there watch Watch What Happens Live on Bravo, which Andy Cohen hosts, but I got to be the guest bartender on his show twice in order to promote my two books.
So I have been lucky. I've had very close friends who have had to deal with the drama of Housewives day to day. But, luckily, I have avoided that for most of my career.
MAX: I also really want to hear about Married at First Sight. You've gotten to work a lot in that project. What exactly did you do for that show, and how did you get involved in what was really a project that had a lot of buzz around it?
TONI: Yeah, Married at first Sight to my surprise when I interviewed to work on it had been around for-- it's been around six, seven years. But they make two seasons a year. So they're now on season 18, I think. I think season 17 is airing, and they're on season 18. I worked in three years on seasons 11 through 16. That's a lot of show in a very short amount of time.
And when I first heard of it and started watching it, I thought, oh, it's going to be so cheesy, and terrible, and mean, and exploitive. And when you watch the show, it's actually quite earnest, almost too earnest and very heartfelt. And most of these people really do think this is the way to find a partner.
And people who sniff at the show and think it is cheesy and bad, I say out of probably 75 couples, there are, I think 10, 11, 12 that are still together, almost all of whom have children. That's a hell of a lot better than the bachelor or any of the other dating shows. So as crazy as it is, it's amazing to watch to see these people's hopes either come true or be dashed.
So as much as I went into it kind of with a critical eye, I ended up kind of admiring the show. It moves a little too slowly for me. It's a little too earnest. But it's definitely an interesting sociological experiment. It's interesting to wonder if you meet somebody who fits most of your criteria and you have experts even help you work on it and there's got to be some interaction, could it work? And most of them don't work because they're not willing to work on it.
MAX: That's interesting. That was another one where I saw it and I'm like I have to ask about this because it's such a wild, wild concept. And just hearing Married at First Sight, I think it's just jarring for people to kind of imagine that reality. But hearing that it works for a decent number of people is pretty interesting.
TONI: Yeah, I've had people like say, but they see pictures, right? No, they don't see their pictures. They talk on the phone, right?
No, it's called Married at First Sight. I know the show Love is Blind, which the same company makes is super popular right now. But I always look at it with disdain. Like, hey, at least they get to talk to each other.
MAX: What was the most fun or entertaining of those shows that you've gotten to work on?
TONI: There's no doubt that The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills-- that was seven years of my career. That was definitely a big one. So you would go to a premiere party with them or something like that. And they'd be very civilized and lovely. And I've heard that they are that way when you're filming with them too. So that's a big plus.
MAX: I would imagine that being a producer for a reality TV show is probably a lot different than other genres. Tell me about what it's like to work in reality TV compared to maybe some other projects that you've worked on.
TONI: I think the interesting and actually really fun thing about working in reality TV is that no matter what people say or at least on any of the shows I've worked on, it isn't scripted. It really is like a documentary crew out there following these people. And that doesn't mean we don't say, hey, you guys have to have a dinner party because we know you all hate each other. And you wouldn't normally hang out with people you hate. But that's what reality TV is.
So we shape story, but we don't write it in advance. We wait and see what happens. So that's, I think, what I love about it is being the documentarian. They shoot all this material in the field. You receive it back in post. And you and your team have to go through that and figure out how to best tell the story.
Sometimes it's a little bit out of order. It's never downright incorrect, at least not in the way I've ever produced a show. It's not a lie, but you make it be the most dramatic it can be. And that's what's fun. You're solving these puzzles. And sometimes little beats are missed.
And you have to figure out how to fill that hole and figure out where to act break, figure out where to break a show in half, figure out arc of an entire season. And they're still filming as you're putting the shows together. So you're kind of always on your toes both in the field and in post. And that's really a fun thing about reality TV that's different from scripted TV.
MAX: And it really is massively popular genre. What do you think makes reality TV so appealing? And what's the secret to making a great reality TV show?
TONI: I think even the shows that people think are scripted, the people are still real. They're not playing characters. And I think a lot of them you can relate to, and a lot of them are aspirational or a lot of them are the opposite of aspirational. I don't want to be those people, but boy are they fun to watch.
Hey, I want to have what The Beverly Hills Housewives have maybe. But I don't want their problems. And I don't think that will ever go out of style, watching people live their lives, whether it's something like Duck Dynasty or it's some people who get married at the altar having never met each other before. Just amazing to see people doing these crazy things.
MAX: And my final reality TV question because this one is really just selfish. I'm just so curious. You got to work on a show called Snoop Dogg's Fatherhood, which is a reality comedy about the rapper Snoop Dogg and his life balancing work and family. How did that project come about, and what was it like to work with Snoop Dogg and his family?
TONI: I'm sorry that I'm not going to have a better answer for you Max because I got pulled into that show after they had filmed most of it. But when they filmed it, they were just thinking Snoop Dogg is amusing so we'll just follow him around. And half the time he didn't show up. I wonder what he could have been doing.
So they had all this footage, and they didn't know how to make a show out of it. So that's why I got pulled in to try to figure out how to take the pieces they had and structure it into a show. So I didn't even really meet him. I went to an interview that he did. And I kind of hid in the background and was taking my notes while he was talking because we were trying to get things very quickly. So he is entertaining no matter what he does.
So I'm a Snoop fan. I don't even really know his music, but I love him as a personality. They did two seasons of that show. I wasn't working on the second one. And the same thing happened. They had to pull me in after most of it had been filmed to try to save the day again.
Maybe I shouldn't be saying this, but I hear there might be a little short show about his daughter Cori getting married. And I'm like, wait, little Cori. She was eight years old when I worked on that show. So, yeah, I'll watch and listen to anything that Snoop does.
MAX: I feel like Snoop Dogg is kind of like the rap version of Shaq. They're just everywhere. Everybody loves them. Like you couldn't really fail to make some kind of entertainment out of them. They're just wildly entertaining personalities.
TONI: Endlessly entertaining. And the only difficulty-- really the difficulty with that show was when he wasn't around for most of the time, and we still had to make the show as if he were around a lot. But that's the fun of reality TV. You wouldn't script it that way.
MAX: You could write a book probably just about that. You've obviously written a few books, which I'll ask you about. But we kind of talked before the show about potentially you writing a book about your own life. Do you think that a lot of the Housewives stories are coming from there or what was the inspiration for your autobiography?
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TONI: Gosh, I saw a movie called My Salinger Year, which was about a young woman in the '90s who worked for the literary agency that repped JD Salinger. Then I remembered-- I went, wait, I read that woman's actual book too years ago. And I thought, well, the woman has an arc, which I don't. I have zero arc in my life. But I thought, what could I write that was reminiscent of something like that?
And I thought, well, humorous vignettes about my career. And whether they all come back to I wrote a good letter or how I figured out how to be a producer, which is like being creative and organized and getting things done-- And I started going back through old diaries. And there's Gracie Films and meeting Tracey Ullman and that whole crowd. And then there's Steven Spielberg, my childhood hero come to life in front of me. I told him to pass on the movie Prince of Tides. That's like my big claim to Fame with Steven Spielberg.
And, again, you've got a smile on your face. So maybe that means that that's a good story. I would probably eventually get to Housewives. I guess people really do want to know how that sausage is made. I'm not as interested in it because I've been doing it for so long. So I don't know whether a lot of stories from reality TV will make it into the book or not if I even write it. But it's something fun to play around with.
MAX: We're going to keep an eye out for that book. And if and when it does drop, listeners can keep an eye out on the Northwestern catalog program, an online book directory where alumni authors can submit their work. I also wanted to ask you about the book series that you've written. Tell me about Twist My Charm, what inspired this, and what are your future plans for Twist My Charm?
TONI: The first book that I wrote that got published. And I always like to throw in it got published by Random House, legitimately published by a big house. I was dating a guy who had two kids. My joke about writing for kids is I don't have kids. I don't want kids. I don't like kids, but please buy my book for your kid.
And I'll go to elementary schools. Of course, I won't say that to the kids. And I do love visiting the kids at the elementary schools. But like I'd always had a good voice because I started writing as a kid.
But I was dating a guy who had two kids. And his daughter was playing with this little joke voodoo doll that I had at my house. And she goes I'd like to use this on someone at school. And I said, well, you shouldn't do that. But maybe you could write a story about it. But then I thought, wait a second, maybe I could write a story about it.
And within a weekend, I didn't have the whole thing plotted out, but I thought this is a marketable, fun story idea for kids. I didn't even know what middle grade books were. But they're for kids who are 8 to 12 years old. I just started learning everything I could about children's literature, going to seminars, and taking classes, and reading the books. And I wrote it. I met an agent who of all things was a big fan of Housewives, which didn't hurt. And she managed to not only sell the first book, which was called Twist My Charm-- The Popularity Spell, the one about the voodoo doll.
But I had also smartly as a TV producer left a little open-endedness at the end, a little cliffhanger, in which the character gets a love potion. I didn't know what that book would even be about. It was just a little funny thing at the end of the book. The agent sold a two-book deal. So they are both out and about. They came out in 2015 and 2016.
And I'm super proud of it. And I'm still working on other kids' projects. I have written a few more. And my agent is taking them around. She says middle grade is very slow right now.
So in my free time, I have been taking these two other middle grade books, totally different subjects, and adapting them into screenplays. Who knows? Maybe one of them will become a movie instead of a book.
MAX: Are there any other book genres that you'd like to explore? And then same goes for TV. Are there any other TV or movie genres that you'd like to work in?
TONI: My literary agent has told me that middle grade is my voice. I don't know what that says about my mental capacities or my Northwestern education. But I do write a good middle grade voice.
That said, I have written other kinds of books. One was a rollicking romp through Australia called A Dingo Ate My Sex Life. That one, tried to get it out there. It hasn't gotten any play. If any literary agents are listening, you know where to get-- and then as far as TV not so much.
I feel like I spent a year or two with a business partner trying to get some reality shows on the air. And some got close. And they didn't go through. And I thought I'm happy just being a cog in the wheel of reality TV. I don't need to run my own. I'll run somebody else's show. But I don't really need to sell my own show.
But as far as creative writing in TV or film go, I would love for any of my stories to ultimately be a TV show or a screenplay. And the two kids books that I'm working on now, as I said I'm going to, they're being adapted into screenplays. So that would be my hope is that one of those books becomes a movie. Even after this long in the business, you can still dream.
MAX: Other than the book series and obviously working in TV, are there any other current projects you're working on? What's next for TONI?
TONI: I'm debating what to do in the twilight of my life. It's not a project per se, but my husband's Canadian. So we're thinking about do we want to live there half the year. And, yeah, it's more about-- maybe now it's time for some work-life balance.
MAX: I think you've earned it. I think you've earned it for sure. And in terms of a career retrospective, when you look back on the steps that you took in your career to get involved with all these incredible projects, for a young Northwesterner or really for any of our listeners who are looking to break into Hollywood and break into whether it's screenwriting, being a producer, just being a writer, what's your advice? What are your tips for getting your name out there?
TONI: Yeah, I'm sure breaking in is a lot different now than it was when I left Northwestern and came to Hollywood. But I think the germ of the advice would be the same. It's don't worry about starting at the bottom. You probably will. But once you get your foot in that door, no matter how small the job is, if it's getting Tracey Ullman's dinner, if it's picking up James L. Brooks's laundry, you do it with enthusiasm.
Everybody should like you and want to work with you again. And that's at every level probably for any kind of career but certainly in Hollywood. If you do a good job and people like you, you will probably move up the ladder.
So how you break in now-- with me, it was writing great letters and sending out even cold letters. Now I'm sure it's emails. It's tweet somebody. It's whatever, however you can get in touch, get somebody's eye on you. But be witty, be charming, be smart, and do a good job.
MAX: And I have to ask just because I think this is just a fun question. And a lot of people would be curious. What is your craziest or most memorable Hollywood story or at least what's your craziest Hollywood story that you feel comfortable sharing on a university podcast?
TONI: Boy, now I'm trying to think of what story I would have that wouldn't be good for a university podcast. I mentioned earlier that working at Steven Spielberg's company was one of the highlights and to have my boss say you have to talk to Steven because you're the only one in the office that has read this script. And I was like 22 or 23 years old right out of school. And I had to go tell Steven Spielberg not to make a movie that had some cachet. The Prince of Tides was a very big book. And I was the only one who had read the script.
And then after I told him that, my boss then kind of jokingly said to me, well, when that wins an Oscar, you're going to be in trouble. But what I found out later was that she had told him to pass on Silence of the Lambs, which did win an Oscar. I read later that Spielberg said I really wish my company had given me that script because that was something I would have been interested in. Ha, ha, old boss.
MAX: Final question for you. I always close with just a fun one. If you get the chance to work with one actor or actress on any project, who would you work with and what kind of movie or show would it be for?
TONI: Well, I know your audience isn't going to be able to see me. But I do love myself some Sandy Bullock. I once was on vacation in Nepal at a yoga retreat. And the guy working there said, Toni, you must tell me, you are Sandra Bullock's sister, right? I was like, I can't believe that. I'm so excited that you think that I remind you of Sandra Bullock.
Again, back when I did comedy, I would say if you see me across a loud, smoky bar and you squint your eyes just right and you've had a few drinks, I might be Sandra Bullock's cousin. But I've also always loved her personality. I wrote a romantic comedy as a book and as a screenplay. So, yeah, Sandy Bullock would be my choice, I think.
MAX: I don't think I've ever seen a Sandra Bullock movie that I have not thoroughly enjoyed. So I think that's a good pick.
TONI: She's a delight. She's an American treasure.
MAX: Yeah, she's a treasure. She's a treasure. TONI, thank you so much for joining us.
TONI: Thank you for having me, Max.
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