A Fireside Chat with Ginni Rometty ’79, ’15 H and President Michael Schill
About this Episode
Episode Episode 140: Published on Sep 28, 2023
We share a fireside chat between Rometty and Northwestern President Michael Schill in which the pair discusses changemaking leadership, the future of technology, and her new bestselling book, “Good Power: Leading Positive Change in Our Lives, Work, and World.”
[MUSIC PLAYING] CREW: Welcome to a very special episode of Northwestern Intersections, where we are sharing the powerful conversation between Ginni Rometty and President Michael Schill. During this special episode, the pair will discuss changemaking leadership, the evolution of global business, and the barriers and opportunities that currently exist for working women. Don't miss powerful lessons and advice from one of Northwestern's most influential alums.
CREW: Please welcome to the stage, McCormick Dean Julio Ottino.
[APPLAUSE]
JULIO OTTINO: as it has been said, my name is Julio Ottino. I'm the dean of the McCormick School of Engineering. And on behalf of my colleagues at Northwestern, it's my absolute pleasure to introduce to you today, my friend Ginni Rometty. Before we get started, I wanted to thank trustees Gordon Segal and Bill White, as well as many members of the Northwestern senior administration joining us today.
So I met Ginni for the first time when she got the Alumni Award in 2010. By then, she was in the list of 50 most powerful women in business. And I visited her later that year, in 2010. And I had a conversation with her that prompted us to create the Master of Science in Analytics. We started with 40 students and 1,000 applications, and has not gone down ever since. So thank you for proposing that.
And then we had, when the IBM anniversary was coming, Ginni's-- one of the first stops was here. Not in this building, but in the Allen Center for the centennial lectures in IBM. That was in March 2011. And then she invited me to an absolutely amazing event coinciding with a United Nations meeting in New York for the IBM 100th anniversary.
And shortly thereafter, she became the CEO of IBM. And that was a transformational period for the company. I don't know if the questions will be about that. Probably not, but she got into cloud computing, quantum computing, and AI way, way before the things were fashionable as they are today.
And in 2015, she received an honor particularly important to me. She was elected to the National Academy of Engineering. I was able to meet her husband Mark, her sister Annette, and her formidable mother, Arlene.
Ginni stepped down from IBM in 2020. Now it's not easy to find a second career, especially after having a successful one. But things become easy when what one does is an extension of how always lived your life before. And I think what you will see now, as a consequence of the book and things that he did prior to that, she became involved in things like Skill First and 110, trying to promote education for people without college degrees.
So to say that Ginni has made us proud is an understatement. She has given back to her alma mater as a member of the board of trustees. And currently serves as the vice chair. And he received an honorary doctorate in 2015. So please welcome-- join me in welcoming Ginni Rometty as well as President Mike Schill, who will lead the conversation.
MICHAEL SCHILL: Welcome everybody. This is a wonderful, wonderful opportunity. Ginni has always been a hero of mine. And now I get to work for her. The, so--
GINNI ROMETTY: They say you never want to meet your heroes.
MICHAEL SCHILL: Is that all right?
GINNI ROMETTY: That's very true, I think, actually.
MICHAEL SCHILL: Well, every bit as good as--
GINNI ROMETTY: No, no, no.
MICHAEL SCHILL: --heroics that I've imagined. And this book, all of you pick up copies. This is a wonderful book. Really interesting and actually showed me lots of dimensions of Ginni as well as some really important lessons that we're going to talk about. The book-- let me first as president of the university, I would be remiss not to ask you questions about Northwestern first.
And tell me a little bit-- you arrived in Northwestern in 1975. And you wanted to be a doctor at that time. What brought you here to Northwestern? And why did you make the switch from wanting to be pre-med to being an engineer? Was it organic chemistry or something else?
GINNI ROMETTY: Yeah, or my inability to do organic chemistry was it. Yeah, so I will answer your question, Mike. But first I want to thank Julio for that kind introduction. I have to tell you guys that Julio did come when I was inducted into the National Academy of Engineering. I thought that was one of the kindest things. I didn't know he was attending, and I just-- there he was in the audience. And so he made a trip to DC. And I'll always remember Julio for that, that that really meant a lot to me. So thank you for that.
So what is my memory? OK, for some of you, you weren't obviously not born in 1975.
[LAUGHTER]
I went to Northwestern. I had two choices. I could really only afford to apply to two schools. So I applied to University of Illinois, I thought that was maybe safe, and then Northwestern. And that would be my stretch in that I couldn't afford school. So one of the only things about Northwestern, it was close enough to home I didn't have to get on a plane. I'd only been on a plane one time. And this, I could take a train.
And as well, Northwestern, as to this day, financial aid is if you can get in academically, then they'll help you with your financial aid, because I had no money. So it was one of two. So you might-- OK, so I pleasantly and, you know, got in.
So I started out as a doctor, wanting to be a doctor, because I would I'd love to tell you it was a more sophisticated reason other than a very noble thing. And Mike is right. I really struggled in organic chemistry. I don't even know if they--
MICHAEL SCHILL: Didn't know.
GINNI ROMETTY: --they still do the model thing with all those little-- looks like a little toy thing. You build your models of your molecules. But the thing I really struggled with, which you are going to laugh at, is I took a course in human reproduction. And I struggled. It was the only course in four years at Northwestern I ever had to take pass/fail. I thought this is either going to kill my grade point if I do not do this. And so with that I thought this is not a good future.
And I was already in the School of Engineering, though, because it was biomedical engineering. I thought I would major in. So I went over, I always loved math. And we'll come back to it. I mean, I always loved math because I never wanted to memorize anything. And my view on math was you could understand the root of things and rebuild everything from there. And so I didn't have to memorize. I could always reconstruct. And that's how I ended up in engineering.
MICHAEL SCHILL: Well, you might have been a great doctor. But we know that you were an amazing engineer and an amazing leader.
GINNI ROMETTY: I was very happy my niece became a doctor and went to Northwestern Medical school. So that solved that urge.
MICHAEL SCHILL: It all revolves around. Do you have a memorable experience from when you were a student here?
GINNI ROMETTY: Well, I have many memorable ones. Not that anyone here cares about them, though. But my memories are things like, my first year was in Sargent Hall. And don't ask me why, the only thing I can remember is that even though I came from a very poor family, I'd never seen a smaller closet. And I don't know if they've remodeled those rooms. But I want to say it's about that. And I can remember I just asked Julio if it was still there. I hadn't paid attention.
I can remember Vogelback. It was a computing center. None of you, it's not there anymore. So you wouldn't remember it. One or two. And because I can remember walking around with boxes of punch cards, carrying them under my arms to go. I actually remember, by the way, the Greek system here. And I know that may be somewhat of a controversial subject in some ways. To me it wasn't a statement of exclusion. It was more of a way to be included in things. So I have a very positive memory of it.
MICHAEL SCHILL: Well if you go to Sargent Hall, I think you'll find it. It looks just like it did when you were here.
GINNI ROMETTY: From the outside it does.
MICHAEL SCHILL: Right. The-- so your book, it starts off with when you were 16 years old. Your dad--
GINNI ROMETTY: What attracted you to Northwestern, then? What's your first memories of coming to campus?
MICHAEL SCHILL: Well, I knew Ginni Rometty was one of the trustees.
GINNI ROMETTY: I don't think so.
MICHAEL SCHILL: The-- and she was writing this great book. No, what attracted me was we are a fabulous school. We are so deep as well as broad. We do-- we mix the creative with the hard sciences. And our faculty are so great. And the university's trajectory over the past 10, 15 years has been so steep that any person with a right mind when they were called by a trustee, you were on the committee. If you were called by a trustee and you were asked, would you like to be interviewed for the presidency of this great university, they'd be crazy not to say yes.
GINNI ROMETTY: It's funny you say because for all of you, some of you graduating or been here a while, I always say when, why did I go here, and I say I felt what Northwestern did was teach me how to think. And I said it was that right brain, left brain. It was exactly as you described it, which I really think is the future of how you're going to have to teach. So I say, if it did nothing else, I learned how to sell problems.
MICHAEL SCHILL: Right, and then how to think creatively as well as critically.
GINNI ROMETTY: So back to the book.
MICHAEL SCHILL: So back to the book, your book starts with a story of how when you were 16 your father left your family-- your mother and your three siblings one of whom went here and is also a trustee. He left right before Thanksgiving. How did that experience change you? How did that experience shape the rest of your life?
GINNI ROMETTY: Well, it's a very personal story to start on, which people find it shocking. Me too, by the way, that I started there, on the book. And we'll come back maybe later to why did I even write a book. It was never anything in my wish list of things to do. But what Mike is referring to, I grew up in a low income but normal, very sort of low income family. And lived in a suburb of Chicago. When you don't know any better, you don't miss anything.
But when I was 16, my father, you say left-- he abandoned our family. And back then, my mother was only 32 years old. And she had four kids. And I happened to walk into the garage. And I heard him say to her, I really don't care whatever happens to you or all of you. And for all I care, you can work on the street. In that instance, I stood there. He didn't-- he turned around and he left.
And I watched my mom. And I start there, not to pull on people's heartstrings. It's more defining what I learned from how my mother reacted to the situation. So it is not about being a victim. It's a celebration. And it, it is, I think, the biggest lesson of the book. So my mother, who had no education past high school, never worked a day outside the home, and now we found ourselves on food stamps with no money. But she was so determined that this isn't how this story would end for the four of us and herself.
So she got a little bit of education. She could work nights. A little bit more education-- she could work days. I would watch my brothers and sisters. A little bit more education. And eventually she ends up running a sleep clinic for one of the big hospitals in Chicago as administrator, leading the administration. So, and my siblings turn out even better than I.
But what my mom taught us all, and this is to me the greatest lesson, and it will get to why I even wrote a book. It was, never let someone else define who you are. Only you define who you are. And that when my mom had nothing, she had power. And the title of the book, Good Power. You know, she had the power to change that circumstance. And that idea, only you define-- I will find it to be true as life would go on, that if I didn't define IBM, somebody else would.
I would find it true for countries. When you just let a president of a country off of the fringe edges, will define the country. I mean, it would always be true. I also learned, and I-- don't worry, I won't give a speech-- but the other thing, I learned two other things. 'Cause I was not just raised by my mom. It was other strong women.
My great grandma would be the last person alive in her family. World War I, come here, speak Russian, work third shift cleaning bathrooms in the Wrigley Building her whole life, saved every dime in savings bonds. That would eventually be what could buy us a car. Never complained.
My grandma was a widow twice by her 30th. She made handmade lampshades. So all three women, what I learned was, hey, don't complain. There's always a way forward. Hard work makes something better. And it's that simple. And hard work is better. And then with my mom, the third lesson was, look, I came to watch-- my mom was actually pretty smart. But she just didn't have any opportunity.
Back to how Northwestern offering financial aid, and it was a really eye-opening for me. And I, I have now, this is what I spend my post career on, that aptitude is spread pretty widely, evenly in this world. Opportunity and access are not. And so what we can do that aptitude and access are not equal, always remember that when you hire. And that would be a really a silver thread through my whole life and change my life of what I would focus on to get more people better opportunities.
So there's a long answer, Mike. But that's why it starts there. It starts with a sad story. But it's meant to be a celebration of-- never be a victim.
MICHAEL SCHILL: And also an exemplar of Good Power, right?
GINNI ROMETTY: She is the exemplar of Good Power.
MICHAEL SCHILL: OK, so now, tell us-- your book is entitled Good Power.
GINNI ROMETTY: So why would I do this?
MICHAEL SCHILL: Well, no, no, no. Well, you can tell us why you would write the book. But also tell us what is Good Power, and how is it a theme that should help guide us.
GINNI ROMETTY: OK, so when I retired, and I was retiring, everything had been very well planned. And it was actually probably Hank Paulson who convinced me the most to write a book. And he would say, we were talking about the definition of power. So if I ask you, how many people want to be powerful? Raise your hand. OK. Half the group.
MICHAEL SCHILL: I'm a president. So I'm already not powerful.
GINNI ROMETTY: You already-- you know your spot. [CHUCKLES]
MICHAEL SCHILL: Faculty is powerful.
GINNI ROMETTY: Yeah, yeah. Students. So a little bit of mix, right. And I would find people that say, some yes. Some would say no. And I'm like, well, the irony is, and there's lots of bad examples of power out in the world right now, OK. Any given day. And I started getting this view that, hey, but to solve a lot of these big problems, you got to have power.
So this is-- we had this, and here I've had this kind of very unique journey in that I had learned so many lessons a hard way. What got me there was could I share something that others would benefit from because this is not a vanity project. I had no desire to spend two years of my life, I mean, which I then found out what it took to write a book-- two years.
And so here's a simple definition. It's how to do hard things, but do them in a positive way, if that matters to you. And in positive way meant, in this day and age, if you're going to get anything done, you better like conflict. But you have to address conflict and division with respect. And you have to be willing to settle for progress, not perfection in the answer. And if you do that, kind of I'm generalizing, you'll make progress. And so that was the definition of Good Power.
MICHAEL SCHILL: So you have in front of you business leaders of tomorrow and maybe some business leaders of today as well as some faculty. What advice would you give them for finding in themselves Good Power and then being able to exercise it in a way that is influential and positive.
GINNI ROMETTY: You know, so the book is complete revisionist history, if you understand what I mean. So this isn't like, boy was I smart. I led with good power. No, no, no, no, no. And it's written in a reflection of the power of me, we, and us. And so my advice, it's you learn different things at different stages of your life. So I hope that's part of what it teaches you.
And the first part is, I would tell everyone, it is worth, close your eyes. And who do you see when you think of your very beginnings? And what did you learn? Because that's probably pretty much the foundation of who you are, and just like I said about my mom. But what would my advice-- probably my one, if I could just give one piece, the whole middle there's these five principles. But at the root of them is, ask more questions than you answer.
MICHAEL SCHILL: Hmm. Could have been a law professor.
GINNI ROMETTY: Well, lawyers get paid to just ask questions not answer them. Yes, that's different. But that idea, whether you want to call it lifelong learning, curiosity-- but it's like this willingness to listen with an intent to learn something. I really felt that was at the root of being able to bridge those tensions and divides. If I would actually listen to the other side and really try to learn something, I really could make progress.
MICHAEL SCHILL: At one point in the book you talk about how you would-- one of your management styles was to get people to want to do something without you telling them to do it. And asking questions is one way to do that, right.
GINNI ROMETTY: It is.
MICHAEL SCHILL: Because you're not saying anything declarative. You're letting them lead themselves towards it. Can you give some examples of that?
GINNI ROMETTY: Yeah, you know, guys, I think-- and again, many of you have worked many places, right? So everybody, I've got people of all different backgrounds in the room. To me this idea, at some point in your life you start to care about people more than yourself. And there's a transition. And what Mike's referring to, the first thing I think you have to get straight in your own head is, if you're going to solve a big problem, why are you doing it? I call that "be in service of something-- don't serve it."
And I felt I got taught that really early in life, to be in service of something. And if I was in service of something, just like if you go and have dinner, if they just bring you your food, it doesn't make it a nice night. If the person kind of goes out of their way, you actually have a nice evening. They're doing that, they're serving you first with the hope they'll get a tip. It's asynchronous. It's not agreed up front.
And that, to me, makes a big difference in business, in life, of what you do. And then this part follows that is, I found in some of the hardest things I did, building belief is getting people to do something that they don't really believe-- it's an alternate reality. So you voluntarily got to go somewhere I hadn't exactly thought about.
And so an example would be. And I had to do this so many times. First off, it's always better if you co-create the answer with them, even if you know it. That's one. The second thing would be, be very personal about it. The third thing would be, is very authentic and honest about it. And I can remember some of the hardest things I had to do, it is not about rah, rah-- let me tell you all the reasons you should do something.
I had done an integration of two big companies, very large companies. And they were humans, not parts. And so I used to say, OK, these humans can leave out the door, right? It's going to be a lot of waste of money here if they leave. And to me, how you get people to believe is you have to appeal to their head and their heart at the same time.
And I used to work a lot with Ken Chenault, who ran American Express. And Ken would always quote. A quote he said, the job of a leader is to paint reality but then give hope. And the "paint reality" was the honest, authentic part. You know, I can't sugarcoat it. And then the "give hope" part is-- that is a companion piece to this. And that's a bit of head and heart, if you think about that.
Now, I used to always credit Ken with it. And so one day, I don't know why I couldn't remember, was it give hope, paint hope. I couldn't remember my order. So I google it. And it's like, well Napoleon said it. So I called Ken up. I'm like you got to quit saying this. I mean, it is really Napoleon.
MICHAEL SCHILL: Well you talk in the book a little bit-- quite a bit about him and about mentorship. How important is being a mentor to you?
GINNI ROMETTY: What do you-- answer that first. You have-- what is your view about-- then I'll give you my answer on mentorship. But I want--
MICHAEL SCHILL: So, you know, I think that I had a mentor who was my thesis advisor in college. And I wanted to be like him. And he supported me all the way through. And when I was getting my first teaching job, they called him from the committee. And he said, you really have to hire him. I want him to marry my daughter, which I didn't do.
GINNI ROMETTY: Did you?
MICHAEL SCHILL: No, I did not do. That would make the story even better. But the-- but it was having someone that committed to you who really wants to see you succeed and who is a model for you.
GINNI ROMETTY: OK, so can I--
MICHAEL SCHILL: That's what a mentor means to me.
GINNI ROMETTY: To you. So I have a different definition.
MICHAEL SCHILL: That wasn't-- that wasn't-- I just came up with that. But it's true.
GINNI ROMETTY: No, it's true. So a sponsor.
MICHAEL SCHILL: Right.
GINNI ROMETTY: The person was a sponsor. So for many of you, I'll just share what my learning on this. And I write a fair amount about it in the book because I think people have this vision that, hey I've got to have one supporter. Or I have to have someone pull me up through. And I so strongly don't believe that. It goes back to this thing, I found the more I was willing to listen people, the more to listen to you, the more invested they became in me.
And so my goal was to have as many people as possible have like this-- network's kind of a cheap word. I don't mean it quite like that-- networking. I don't mean it that way. But I once worked for someone who said to me, whenever anyone calls you for help, you give it. And over the years I found, OK, all the things I gave would eventually come back another day in the form of sponsorship.
And so this idea, my view for everybody is, hey, just back to be such a great listener and question answer. And if you take personal interest in people, they will really, in the end, either help you, sponsor you, whatever it is, when it's genuine. And so I try to encourage people to learn from as many people as possible. And then, honestly, you'll look up one day, and they will be there.
And they will come back into your life in all the, ironically, most important moments. And that, to me, is your way to build a long-lasting network. It'll be what will be the greatest source of-- we'll maybe talk about resilience. But the varied relationships will be your greatest source of resilience, the harder the things you work on because the harder you work on them, the more unkind the world is.
MICHAEL SCHILL: Yeah. Oh, I understand. Tell us a little bit-- let me switch a little bit to-- so you were obviously trailblazer, CEO of IBM. You also were in a time when you were probably the only woman in the room a lot of times. Do you think of that as an impediment? Or looking back, was it an advantage to be that only woman in the room?
GINNI ROMETTY: Both. And so, I didn't ask-- how many people are in the engineering school here? OK, a third. So what I-- my memories, and look, I'm in tech now. So this is still not crazily filled with women. And but back then, when my other memory of Northwestern would be, being the only woman in most places.
In fact, I was at an event last week, and they wanted to bring me your person to introduce me. And he was, they said, he was in a class with you. Don't you remember him? I'm like, well, there was one of me and 50 of him. I don't remember him. I'm so sorry. And I'm like, oh, you look vaguely familiar. And so-- and of course, I think I look the same. But probably not true.
But that point-- the reason I say two sides to it, and this is very-- this to me, I write a fair-- I didn't originally write about this in the book. But I was willing to listen to a lot of feedback on the book before it got published. And a lot of people wanted me to talk about this. So authentically, what did I really feel? And I said, look, I was the only woman. And it had a very interesting effect on me because I was, I knew when I raised my hand and talked, what I said would be remembered.
And I didn't want to look stupid. And therefore, I studied super hard. It would lead to this lifelong overpreparation point, by the way. But I would be so focused on that. So was that fair I felt that way? No. Did it have this positive effect that what it was first like a shield that I felt I had to know more? But over time that would then become a source of confidence, right? And be more prepared than others in the room. And so, fine.
But then I would start my career, Mike. And I felt, listen, don't look at me as a woman. I went to great lengths to avoid all things that were gender related. And at one point, I-- it's one of those memories you have. I was down in Australia. Financial service was an industry I know a lot about. And I was giving a speech on it.
Man comes up to me after. And I thought it was like a riveting speech. And he comes up to me. And I think he's going to ask me something about something. And he says, I really wish my daughter had been here. And in the moment, it's those epiphanies. I said to myself, OK.
And I was pretty rising up in my career. And I thought, hmm, this isn't really about me. This is the wrong way to look at this question, that people cannot be what they cannot see. And honestly, pretty selfish of me to not want to be a role model. And I had better start to embrace this being a role model thing. So I say that in a way that, I then became much more active on the topic, to just address it and talk about it.
And as time would go by, and even to this day I write about this, and my other women friends who run big companies, I think collectively believe what we do is personalized and magnified. I can remember I would buy a big company. And the newspaper would say I was on a shopping spree. I'm like, well, that's an interesting way to categorize that. $34 billion is not exactly a shopping spree.
And so, now, it's that good and bad. It was remembered. So I think-- I'd like to think in 40, 50 years, how far we've come. Although, I must say, I went to some of my very best friends as the book was coming out. And in support they're like, I cannot wait to show this to my daughters. I said, oh, you don't think you should read it? And so then I wonder, in all those decades, right? And so made me then proactively address the topic.
MICHAEL SCHILL: So let's continue that theme for a second about barriers and hurdles. How do you think we have progressed over time? Do we still have the same sorts of barriers?
GINNI ROMETTY: So, here, I'll give a short answer to this. OK, because I can give long answers as I'm demonstrating. So I get asked a lot of questions about diversity and inclusion now. And it starts with one really fundamental question, which I believe strongly in. Do you authentically believe a diverse workforce is a better workforce? That's it. You have to either authentically believe that, or this doesn't go anywhere.
I really believe it. Now, I had the-- I worked for two companies that have long, long histories, that are very values-driven. And so I grew up in those environments that did honestly appreciate inclusion. So I'm lucky in that sense. I was a baby manager in the '80s. And I was ranked on if I had a group with minorities. It was a different word back then. I was ranked on if I developed people. I mean, so this was like in my brain 50 years ago. But I then learned, hey, the more different people in the team, better answer.
So do I think we've made progress? I think those that really believe what I just said have made progress. I think there's a lot more to do because there's a lot of barriers to it. I think there's no silver bullet, my short answer. It's like a million actions. You have to keep raising the bar on yourself to make people feel they can be themself at work, no matter what background-- it's not just a gender point by far anymore, right-- and then be accountable.
I can remember, I was helping someone. And he wanted-- it was about more women. And he said to me, I said. OK, now we've got to publish those numbers. And he's like, I'm not going to publish the numbers. I said, well, OK, this is like-- you don't really believe this, then. We wanted salary parity. I said you've got to then stand up for what you believe. So it's just authentic actions, accountability. It's like, that's it.
MICHAEL SCHILL: So I think I can predict this answer. But do you think there's anything intrinsically about women that makes them better leaders?
GINNI ROMETTY: I think particularly-- I think in today's world, it gets back to this definition of Good Powers. This is a women's book or anybody's book, anybody's book. I think what people might-- I'm not from the humanities. But maybe they call that feminine traits of being authentic. I didn't say woman, right. Being authentic, being a good listener, being willing to bridge divides, bring people along-- I think that's what-- I mean my friend who ran Unilever, Paul Polman, he had just done this study recently, 5,000 people and millennials and all different categories.
And the number-one thing people were looking for is to work for someone authentic and a company that believed in something. And it doesn't mean you get to do that every minute of every day, by the way. OK, so I think that is-- and that's what like, quote, "good power," this idea you motivate with respect not fear. And you build with not tear down people is what, I think, a lot of people want. So that's my answer. Is that what you thought my answer would be?
MICHAEL SCHILL: I thought your answer was going to be something along those lines that didn't heavily focus on gender but qualities of people.
GINNI ROMETTY: Yeah, so I fulfilled your stereotype.
MICHAEL SCHILL: No, but I'm going to come back and may, you know, I'm a law professor. So I'm going to come back on another question on the same subject. Do you think that those, you called them feminine traits, are randomly distributed in the population? Or do you think that women, either by nature or by nurture, are better at?
GINNI ROMETTY: I think some, by nature and by just some roles, can find those more abundant. But I absolutely believe those are learned traits. They can be learned. So I feel very, very, very strongly about that. And so, because one of the things I think you need in today's world is-- you're going to judge whether you think I'm a good communicator or not-- but is be a good communicator. And I believe that's a science, not an art.
Many people think, oh, man. I can't. I'm not a good communicator. Like, I was a horrible communicator to start. I got like Fs and stuff like on that topic. And now in the end, I end up being a better comm-- I mean, you could learn on how to do that.
MICHAEL SCHILL: So what would you say is your superpower?
GINNI ROMETTY: I should ask you if I even have one?
MICHAEL SCHILL: You know, I've known you only for seven months. I don't know you extraordinarily well. But I would say certainly listening to you today, listening to you over time, you have an authenticity and a sort of, I am-- you can believe what I say. And I'm going to tell you what I say. Even if you don't agree with me, I'm going to tell you what I say. And I think people respect that.
GINNI ROMETTY: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think, someone once said I had a velvet hammer. I don't know is that a good-- at first I asked the person, I'm like, hey, is that a good thing or a bad thing, because I was like horrified by it. And but I think it was that you could be honest. But you don't have to do it in a way-- you could do it in a way that it can actually be helpful in a way to do it. But I don't actually think of having a superpower, OK. So that isn't what I think.
MICHAEL SCHILL: You have A super career. And you're having.
GINNI ROMETTY: Thank you. But that is a result of working with a lot of great people.
MICHAEL SCHILL: All right, you focus from time to time on the lessons learned from leading in an uncertain time.
GINNI ROMETTY: Yeah, that's a good one.
MICHAEL SCHILL: And today is probably more uncertain than ever. But during your period, technology changed so dramatically in computers and in information technology. What are some of the principles that you think--
GINNI ROMETTY: So, yeah. Can I jump-- I'll just jump in. I'll try to do it shortened. To Mike's point, and I'm really quite honest about this, I mean, when I took over IBM in 2012, you had just the beginnings of-- you had cloud. You had AI. You had data. You had just the beginning of social and mobile. Cell phones haven't been out there all that long.
And so technology usually had like one trend, whoof, whipping. And now there are five. And we had done fantastic in the past. But we weren't prepared for the future. And two out of 10 people didn't-- they had great skills for the moment, not for the future. I had some of my greatest lessons about change in that time frame.
So one of them was the importance of knowing what must change. OK, that's easy. The more important question I learned was what must endure. I'd never realized the importance of that till I got into it. Now, remember, I have a huge, huge, huge workforce in a very large company in 170 countries and half a million people. This is on scale.
And it's easy because people would always write about the portfolio. Change this. Change that. Build this. Do this. You know. But the real question got to be, OK, but wait, wait, wait. What are we? And I always, I can remember one of those, again, epiphany stories. Arne Sorenson, who ran Marriott, had become a good friend. We had both kind of risen up. He became CEO of Marriott. Arne has passed. He was a great leader at this moment.
But one day-- so in that quest to be everything new because the pressure is so intense on IBM with all these new other companies growing so fast around it. And here we are the oldest kid on the block. And I called Arne. I'm really competitive. And I'm like, you probably already figured this part out, and I'm like, Arne, let me tell you why we should win this marketing program. And I'm telling him all the reasons. And he says to me, Ginni, Ginni, why don't you just be the best IBM you could be?
And I thought-- and we talked about it. He said, look I count on you for the property management systems, the loyalty management systems, the things that run, like, it's all that mission-critical work. And why do you care about this thing? I thought to myself, yeah, why do I care about this thing? And it would lead me to divest like $11 billion of businesses, not just that one. But that thought of, look what we are is mission-critical work. That is what we are.
Planes don't fly. Banks don't run. Nothing happens with what we do below the surface. And that, this other stuff is ornaments. It's like what makes you, you? And it also, for a workforce, it's that fundamental why. Like when so much has to change, it gives them something to hang on to because it's like, yes, this-- even if it has to be modernized, right. Because I'm not saying live in the past. It has to be modernized.
So I learned the endure question. And I learned two others which was, I would say to people, OK, again world's moving so fast. It's uncertain. All this change. Consumerism. Ease of use. I'd be like, come on, faster, faster, faster. And I felt like, oh my god, I was like tongues hanging out-- faster. And, OK, after two years, their tongues are hanging out. And I'm like, OK, but we're not going faster. And I really learned another valuable lesson.
It's not like people wake up in the morning and go, god, I want to be slow today. I, the big I, we create that environment. So whether it's layers and processes and rules and tools and-- you have to change how people work. So a big lesson that is kind of handwritten at the end of the book is, never forget that how you lead and how work is done just may be more important than what is done. And that was profound for me. It took me a while to learn it.
You started, what things do I wish I learned earlier? I mean, this would take me down a path of design thinking, agile. Things you do today natural. But back then, on scales of hundreds of thousands, was not true. And because the big I, give them tools. And then the last lesson I learned was skills. And it was-- because many companies go buy the skills they need. I would learn that was not the answer because I would hire new skills, and I would have people with existing skills.
And I would learn, actually, the real winners were the two groups that were who, from each group, was willing to learn the other side. And so it would make me learn this idea that the most important thing I could hire for was somebody's willingness to learn.
And, in fact, it became then, we changed everything about hiring to hire for someone's willingness to learn above all, their other hard-core skills because, especially in tech, I mean, it's going to change every three to five years. And so, and I realized like OK if I hired someone who did the same thing for 30 years, the odds of getting them to change is very low. And so it was profound in our hiring approach.
MICHAEL SCHILL: Did you find it, given that, there are some people who are resistant to change. Did you find it difficult to make transitions for people?
GINNI ROMETTY: Look, I gave people every opportunity in that there are times you have to make very difficult decisions. And I think that's part of the book about hard problems. Stewardship means you do the right thing for the long term, even if you may not benefit from it now. And you have to make those decisions. And I feel, you give people every chance to change. If they can't, the institution has to endure. You benefit so many others. And you've got to move on.
MICHAEL SCHILL: All right, talk to me about AI, the topic that's on everyone's--
GINNI ROMETTY: I love it. So I unfortunate or fortune, I was into AI before AI was cool. Isn't there a song like that? Maybe it's a country-western song or something. Or maybe I was into country before country was cool. But what do I know? So I feel one of the most important principles of change right now is for all of us to be stewards of good tech, meaning bring this technology safely into the world.
I'm not sure that I think the way it was unleashed was the safest way because expectations weren't properly set. And I learned this with AI, being one of the pioneers back in 2012. And what I would summarize it is, today the issue to me is, it's a trust issue, not going to be a technology issue.
Meaning, do you trust you'll have a better future? And can you trust that this technology is explainable, it is free of bias, it is accurate? And it's going to hinge on that. I do think it could change a lot of jobs. It'll remove some, like every technology has. But it could also make us better. So I see a glass half full. And I see a glass half empty. And I think of any technology out there right now, this is the one that needs humans to govern over.
And I don't mean stop it. I mean be clear what it's used for. Be clear what it's not good at. A knife can do good, and it can do bad, OK. And it's got to have--
MICHAEL SCHILL: You think about government regulation?
GINNI ROMETTY: I think, when I think of government-- some. I think it should be precision regulation, meaning govern its usages not the technology. It's not a good thing to just say, oh, stop development of it. You can't. I've tried to slow down technology waves. Look, it took Netflix-- I read a thing, Netflix three and 1/2 years to get to a million users. It took Chat five days. And now it's at like what, 150 million. So forget it. Out of the box already.
But what you could do is say, you can use it in these situations. I don't want you using it in these situations. Just like we use our face to open a phone. Do you-- probably don't find that too-- some people might find it offensive. But the majority does not. But you don't believe it should be used for racial profiling, facial recognition, right? So I'm governing its usage.
And so that's what I think should happen. But then the rest is going to be about trust in your brand. Because remember, this new form of AI-- we've had four generation-- this stuff, it's one big thing. And I do worry about the dominance. That means that model sits in the hands of a few people. And all it's doing is predicting the next word. But it's being trained. So if you're a company right now, I would not use my secret information to train because it's being trained there, not-- I can't control it any longer.
You give up your IP. So, so many things to be answered. But so my view on this is short. It's a trust issue. I think it's going to be up to all of us as individuals and education. And I think education is going to be the first industry to be disrupted. So we haven't had a chance, we'll talk over lunch about what Northwestern-- it should-- it could redo education. And it maybe it will reintroduce critical thinking back in. Because instead of memorizing stuff, you don't need to do it. The thing can summarize the, you know.
Now, it's not always right. When it first came out, first thing I ask, of course, my husband is sitting there like you are. And I say, so who is Mark Rometty? Julio's met Mark, and you have, too. And the answer I got back is, it's three pages of all the things he did to run IBM. And I looked at it. He looks at it. He's like, I'll get that printed. He's like, finally, I get the credit I deserve. And so it's not right. I mean, completely not right.
I was with my friend who runs Lockheed Martin. It's got her husband as a professor of engineering at University of Alabama. He's not, he's not that. So that doesn't matter if it's about what movie to see. But it matters if it's your cancer treatment. Or it matters for really important questions. So anyways, I learned a lot about that. That's all a lot of tidbits about, this is going to be a trust issue and making people believe that they have the skills to have a better future, which takes me to what I do now.
It threads back to my mom. Access and opportunity are not equal. My whole life was spent apprenticing. I took on jobs that probably I should have had an MBA for, Francesca, that I didn't. But I learned it another way. And it taught me that, please, evaluate me for my skills, not just my degree. And a shocking number, to me, is 65% of Americans don't have a college degree. 80% of Black Americans don't.
And I would learn in my time when I had to hire people, and I couldn't find them. And unemployment was high. Serendipity had me work with some high schools, low income, community college. And I was able to help them through internships and curriculum, get associate degrees-- make great employees. By the way, not only great-- outstanding. By the way, they went on to get four-year degrees. It all proved my case over and over again about, this is not an issue of aptitude in the world.
And so on the murder, on the heels of the murder of George Floyd, as business looked for what could it do to really help address systemic racism, I believe economic opportunity's the greatest leveler out there. People have good jobs, sustain a family-- that is one of the best things you can do.
So with a couple of my friends, started a group called OneTen. I had been working on this now 15 years about. I had redone all-- not me personally, the team-- all of IBM's job requisitions because we were 100% PhDs and university. I said but we're getting these great cyber people. Let's go look how many jobs really require a four-year degree to start? And I would learn about 50% of all jobs in America are over-credentialed.
It became easy after things like the GI Bill, college degree required to start. And all my point is, where you start should not determine where you end. And some of us will have different on ramps, like my mom. And that idea ends up being very true. And so now I'm dedicated-- the best way we could help on the heels of the murder of George Floyd, group OneTen is 1 million Black employees without college degrees into upwardly mobile middle class jobs in 10 years.
And how we're-- we're lifting the boats for everyone, although that's like a startup, what we chose to focus on. Ken Frazier, who ran Merck, Ken Chenault, who ran Amex, Charles Phillips ran Oracle, Kevin Sharer ran Amgen, and myself. Ken and I are the two co-chairs. And we're working with all the big companies in the country to recredential their jobs-- supply and demand. Can I fix the demand side so that when it's not required to start, take it off.
And then build a whole culture around skills, for your degreed people as well. Reward them for their skills. And then the other side is, now, can I get people who don't yet have a degree enough skill to get started in a job so they can begin their skill journey? And I just think it's like the root of democracy in this country. People do not see a better future, they'd prefer an alternate system. And this is why I'm so committed to this work now.
CREW: Thank you, listeners, for tuning in to today's special episode of Northwestern Intersections. For more information about Northwestern Intersections, please visit northwestern.edu/intersections.
