About this Episode
Episode 162: Published on Sep 5, 2024
Learn more about the broadway show Job and how the Northwestern duo that has worked together to make it possible.
Broadway Lights, with Michael Herwitz '18 and Russell Kahn '16
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[MUSIC PLAYING] MAX HERTEEN: Welcome back to Northwestern Intersections, a Northwestern Alumni Association podcast. We'll be talking to alums about their career paths and the lessons they've learned along the way. Our guests today are Michael Herwitz and Russell Kahn. The pair were classmates at Northwestern and reconnected on an incredible project, a Broadway show produced by Russell and directed by Michael, who became one of the youngest people to ever direct an original play on Broadway. Their production, Job, was recently extended on Broadway to October 27. We will dive into this story and more about their creative projects on this edition of Northwestern Intersections. Russell, Michael, thank you both so much for being here.
RUSSELL KAHN: Thanks for having us. So excited to be chatting.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: It's such a thrill. Thank you.
MAX HERTEEN: First of all, huge congratulations to both of you. This is such a unique project, and I've got a ton of questions for you as we go. But let's kick it all the way back-- not really all the way back. You guys are pretty recent alums-- thinking about coming to Northwestern in the first place. What brought you to Evanston, and what did you study?
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Russell, you literally have to go first for my answer to make sense.
RUSSELL KAHN: You know, I was an early decision Northwestern applicant. I'm class of 2016. I had gone to a public performing arts magnet in New York City, LaGuardia, for high school, and so had been a theater kid at a young age. I'm sure Michael will touch on this, but we were there together as well. I'm like a year or two older than Michael.
But I think what first attracted me to Northwestern was the richness of the theater community, the DIY mentality of it. I remember visiting schools with parents ahead of that decision. I saw a production of Miss Julie or After Miss Julie, whichever that Strindberg play is, in the Shanley Pavilion.
And I remember me and my mom being like, what is this play? What is this production? It makes no sense. But at the same time, being so invigorated to be in a tiny room with people trying something out in a way that felt incredibly authentic and on their own terms, which is what an arts education experience or any education experience should be. And so I think that was what really sealed the deal for me.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: That's such an amazing answer, Russell. My answer, in short, is Russell. As Russell said, we went to high school together. Russell was two years above me.
And I looked up to Russell so much when I was in high school and sort of had a little bit of like a North Star, like, follow that person. And so when someone who you look up to goes to a school, then you're like, I should go to that school.
So there were a couple of voices in my high school who said, I think Northwestern is a good match for you. And when I knew that Russell was going, I was like, OK.
And I remember texting you, Russ. I remember this very distinctly. It must have been my junior year, maybe your freshman year-- my junior high school year, freshman year at NU. And I was like, hey, it's Michael Herwitz. I got your number from Blaze. I'm thinking about applying to Northwestern. Could we talk about it? And you were so nice, and we did talk about it. And then yeah, when I got to campus, Russell was this older brother who set me on the course for my whole Northwestern career.
But also when I went to visit-- similarly to Russell, I went to go see The Dolphin Show, which was happening when I was there. And it was My Fair Lady, and there was a girl from the town that I grew up in, Garcia, who was working on the show, and she was on her first run. So she said, hey, come up with me, and we can watch from the balcony together where the entire team sits. So on opening night of The Dolphin Show, it was like the entire creative team and then me as the [INAUDIBLE].
And I think similarly, it was sort of not necessarily about the show on the stage, but it was about being in the community of the people watching and really watching them watch it. And I thought, oh, my gosh, I want to be-- I want to be in this balcony with these kids. I want to be making this thing. I didn't know that students could do all of that themselves without any real adult hands. And so this short of just sheer willpower of the Northwestern student body I think is really what sealed the deal for me.
RUSSELL KAHN: And I should add, Michael went on to direct The Dolphin Show his senior year, so very full circle.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: I did. I did.
MAX HERTEEN: Honestly, I think that full circle is probably the word I would use to describe this podcast, because there's always that story of reconnecting with somebody, having some kind of experience that brings you to campus, and then you end up doing it.
And, I mean, Michael, you already mentioned it sort of having this built-in role model with Russell. Were there any other people, whether it's role models or even experiences at Northwestern, that really sort of shaped your college experience or even your professional experience years later?
MICHAEL HERWITZ: It's like everything and nothing. It's sort of hard to-- it sort of feels like the whole experience was just that. I mean, I think I will say something I sort of regret about college-- not to start on a more sour note, but I really don't think that I forged a ton of relationships with professors. I think what I really did is I forged a lot of connections with the fellow students. I really felt like my mentors were lateral mentors. It was my classmates.
Most of my learning happened in Shanley Pavilion, and in the Louis Room, and in the spaces where the student theater puts up work. That was my biggest-- sort of my biggest growth happened side by side.
But I do think that mentality is an extraordinarily direct 100 to 100 ratio-- is how our job came to be in the world. I mean, it really-- I feel like if the Student Theater Coalition at Northwestern University didn't exist, there is no world in which Job would have happened and no world which would have happened at the Soho Playhouse and this initial run that we all made together.
I mean, I feel like Russell and I were constantly drawing upon our StuCo experience to lead us through that process. And I think that's something that you and I both, Russell, in the 10 years that we've been adults-- not so much. I think a little less than 10 years. But I feel like I think Russell and I kind of learned what it means to make theater on your own terms, and we've then applied that everywhere we've gone since. And so I feel like that's just the--
RUSSELL KAHN: Yeah.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: You know, it's all the same.
RUSSELL KAHN: If there's anyone to shout out for making that training ground available to us as students, I think Tracy Gibson-Jackson would be first on the list in my heart. I think she sits in, whether it's called the Student Activities Office or Student Affairs Office. But Tracy worked tirelessly.
I think making work creatively when you're a young person feels incredibly high stakes. Everything feels so life or death, like whether you get the rights to this classic musical, or whether the University allows you to argue that it's fair use for you to take a popular book and try it out on stage. It feels so vibrantly important to a young person.
And I think for someone who is an adult, who has grown up, who is not an artist, to sit with us in that same spirit of urgency is really rare and really makes a lot of the work that we did at Northwestern as students that inform the work we're able to do as adults possible.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: For sure. And also, I'll just add one more person to that who I think is very similar to that, which is where Russell and I really got to know each other, really started making work together on the Jewish Theater Ensemble, which is a specific board in the student theater umbrella. And Michael Simon, who's the executive director of Northwestern Hillel, was our faculty advisor for JTA and so I think very much similar to Tracy.
He also sat with us as we were, I remember, grappling with both the interpersonal complications of running a student theater board with all of your friends, and also this extremely high stakes artistic mandate we all felt we had. So big shout out to Tracy and to Michael.
MAX HERTEEN: Talk to me just about your first work experiences. What happened for either of you or for both of you, I should say, after Northwestern?
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Sorry, I'm realizing in real time that I think my first job was Russell hired me to stage manage an immersive sort of cinema/dance physical theater experience.
RUSSELL KAHN: If anyone listening has ever seen a video of the Sphere, picture us doing that on a budget of $30,000 in a Brooklyn warehouse in 2017 and Michael reining in all of that chaos as stage manager.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: And Russell being both in it, and producing it, and literally driving trucks into a random, very commercial, but also very raw airplane hangar in Williamsburg. I will say I can't-- Russell, I admit to you now, it was not my favorite job I've ever had.
RUSSELL KAHN: [INAUDIBLE]
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Yeah. But yes, I actually think literally the first commitment I had post-graduation, like six weeks later, was with Russell and another Northwestern graduate-- two other Northwestern graduates, [INAUDIBLE] and [INAUDIBLE] to work with them on this piece called Arcade Americana. That was my first gig. What was your first gig out of school, Russ?
RUSSELL KAHN: My first gig out of school. I was a mailroom clerk at Creative Artists Agency in Los Angeles, which is the very old Hollywood, foot-in-the-door, kind of paying your dues system. And I was promoted onto a desk there working for a prominent motion picture literary agent.
And after that, I missed New York. I missed the theater and was able to move internally within the company to work in the creative-- the theater department at CAA, after which I left to work on this experimental theater piece with Michael.
MAX HERTEEN: And Russell, this one is specifically for you. I want to ask you about the work that you have done with Scrap Paper Pictures. And for anyone who's listening who might not know, just give the rundown on what this company is and how did you get into that role?
RUSSELL KAHN: Yeah, absolutely. So Scrap Paper Pictures is a production company founded by actress and producer Rachel Brosnahan, who starred on The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, among other things. And I've been at the helm of the company for about a year now, but working with Rachel for almost six.
We produce television through a first-look deal at Amazon Studios, and we produce features independently with a broader network of partners. We're committed to artist-first stories that expand the world we recognize on screen and stage.
And the way I ended up meeting Rachel, shortly after Michael and I were in that Brooklyn air hangar toiling away, clearing years of dust out of mostly unused warehouse to put up this show that, again, felt so vital and so urgent-- all the idealism of youth. I was waking up at 5:00 AM every morning at the time and then coming down to this warehouse to unlock it with Michael and was absolutely convinced that AEG was going to come buy us tomorrow, and it would run for 30 years, and was preaching the gospel that immersive entertainment was the future.
And then after the show ended and our space grant ran out, people were not boring down our front doors to give us $14 million to buy a nightclub and start doing theater at the center of it, which was really what my logical plan for next steps was. And when that didn't fall into my and our laps, I was in a place of indecision and was not totally sure what my right next step was.
I felt like I'd moved to LA. I'd tried this sort of wheeling, dealing Hollywood thing, and it didn't feel quite right to me. I had tried my version of the theater thing that felt truest to me with this show, and there wasn't a clear path forward for it. And so I wasn't sure where my place was.
And I was temping around to get more experience and met Rachel on set of The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel as a PA. And we connected really, really quickly, realized that we cared about similar stories and had similar ideas about how they would meet audiences.
And I started working as her assistant, which was this really dream job at first, because I got to-- the asks were make sure she's hydrated, run lines with her. And I was like, what an incredible opportunity to stand next to this person from the second they receive a script to the moment they walk off set, giving this incredibly, critically well-received performance.
And did that-- Rachel received the First Look deal from Amazon to produce television and so started the company. I came over to that side of things and have been able to climb my way up internally here over the past five, six years.
MAX HERTEEN: Michael I'm going to basically turn it over to you. Similar question, just walk me through the journey. I know you've been really in and around theater sort of your whole life. What other projects have you been working on up until now?
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Yeah, so I was a child actor when I was a kid, so I had a really very strong and intense start to theater. Especially, I think, when you're a boy who sings and you live within 45 minutes of New York City, it's easier than for most folks to start a professional career. So I had done that when I was a kid.
And by the time I got to the end of high school, I knew that I didn't want to act at all anymore. I remember coming to Northwestern and thinking, like, well, if the project is right, maybe I'll act. Which is, first of all, a ridiculous thing to say. And B, nonesuch project ever really emerged.
So I guess by the time I finished Northwestern, I was like, well, it's definitely behind me now. Plus, I think Northwestern, I was really saying I wanted to be a director. And I got a lot of-- I grew a lot of confidence at Northwestern, because I had gotten to direct a bunch of projects.
I did a bunch of musicals, which are sort of big in scale. And I think some directors are very frightened of musicals. I'm actually very frightened of plays. Musicals is kind of where I feel most comfortable. So I kind of felt like I had built out a little bit of a niche, and my friends and the Northwestern community was so affirming of that.
And so I came to New York right after graduation, coming to make a career as a director. I assisted a lot that first year. I worked at MCC Theater. I had interned at off-Broadway theater company, had interned there every summer of college, so I knew them. So I went back to there.
And I assisted at Signature Theater. And I got a job working at the front desk at Flywheel Sports, which was an indoor cycling studio.
RUSSELL KAHN: I forgot about that.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Yes, I would get up, similar to Russell, like 4:30 in the morning, and I'd work the morning shift from 5:00 to 9:30. And then I'd run down to Signature to have rehearsal starting at 10:00 and be in rehearsal 10:00 to 6:00, then go home and go to sleep and do it all the next day.
And lived with two Northwestern theater majors-- then we kind of started figuring things out together. And then a year and a half into that process, the pandemic hit. So I was like, OK, theater is totally dead and is never going to come back. And I was trying to figure out what I was going to do, and I'd only ever really had this one passion.
My dad really wanted me to double major at Northwestern, and I didn't do that. I was so silly. I should have, but I kind of was like, I'll take a million other classes. And I sort of lie now when I tell people, I kind studied history, and I kind studied English, and I kind studied Jewish studies and gender studies, but I don't have any piece of paper that says I did any of that, just what I was curious about. I wanted to do American studies like Russell did, but I didn't get in, so I had to make it myself.
And then in the pandemic, I ended up working at a synagogue. This is another strange Russell connection. I ended up working-- many of my friends from college all grew up going to the same synagogue on the Upper West Side of New York City, including Russell.
RUSSELL KAHN: [INAUDIBLE]
MICHAEL HERWITZ: I was applying for jobs, thinking maybe I was going to go to rabbinical school. I'm not very religious, but I kind of thought that if I couldn't direct theater, what is the next best thing that requires a similar skill set and a similar personhood? And I wanted a job that felt like it really used all of me the way that I think theater directing and being an artist uses all of you.
Another funny thing about the show that we're talking about is about a person who wants a job that sort of uses all of her. So for me, I thought maybe being a rabbi would be that. That brought me to Rodef Shalom. I ended up feeling like I can't be a rabbi, because I can't be needed by that many people. That feels too intense for me. And I was there. Theater started to come back.
RUSSELL KAHN: Being an agent for someone's spiritual life.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Yeah, exactly. And theater started to come back. I kind of felt this real itch. And I went to all these shows that were having their reopening nights on Broadway, and I thought this is-- I've got to figure out how to get back over here. And it took me a little bit of time to figure that out.
And as I was figuring that out, this play Job came into my life. And I'm very dear friends with this playwright named Max Friedlich who I had been-- throughout that time working the front desk at Flywheel Sports, throughout assisting other directors, Max and I were starting to work on plays together. Oh, I also had a theater company. I should say this.
I had a theater company that I created with my best friend from high school, really, again, in the model of the Chicago ensemble-based theater companies. Because when I was at Northwestern, I was looking at Steppenwolf, I was looking at Lookingglass.
And I was seeing this sort of mentality, this ensemble mentality of how those theaters functioned, which doesn't exist in New York, totally in the same way or not as prominently. And I thought, oh, I really want to create this with my friends. And so we had created this theater company. That's why I started working with playwrights, creating new work under that umbrella.
Max Friedrich was one of the playwrights we worked with. He and I worked together one time, and it was a really-- we balanced each other out in this really beautiful way. And it became this really symbiotic artistic partnership, and I became the go-to person for him. So whenever he had something new, I would usually be one of the first people who would get it. And one of those plays was called Job.
And he was going to submit it to this festival at Soho Playhouse. We were to run it for one night only in this competition where there were like 30 pieces and some of them were clowning and some of them were musicals. And we had this weird little play.
And it was a-- if we were to win the competition at the end of the day, then we would be eligible to have a two or three-night run at the Soho Playhouse in their calendar the following year. And so we ended up winning this competition after two rounds of voting and judgment, and the prize at the end of that was not only two or three nights, but actually was proposed to us as a two or three-week engagement that we would do at the Soho Playhouse.
We thought, well, that's really cool, but we're going to need a producer, because we can't do all this ourselves. And so the first question was, who do we know? Who is someone who we know who's like scrappy, resourceful, talented, hungry, passionate, and who's willing to drive a U-Haul at 1:00 in the morning with all of the props? And the answer was clearly Russell Kahn-- was the only person we could think of.
We said, hey, Russ, we've been talking to you for a long time. Would you be willing to read this play and maybe think about coming on board and helping us get this up? Russell said, absolutely. I actually have a friend who's looking for a project like this named Danielle. Can I bring her to this meeting? We were like, sure. I was like, we have a friend named Hannah. We're going to bring her to the meeting.
So then the five of us all get on this big Zoom call one fateful day and decided that the five of us would go in and create this play together. And that's the play that, once we formed our team, we went back to Soho Playhouse. They said, hey, instead of two weeks, we'll give you five weeks.
We started running the show. Five weeks turned into nine weeks. Nine weeks turned into a commercial transfer at a different off-Broadway theater. And then that production turned into a Broadway production that is now-- is going to have a show at 7:00 tonight. So it's truly like a fairy tale.
RUSSELL KAHN: All in the span of about a year.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Yeah, in about 10 months all this happened.
RUSSELL KAHN: Yeah, which I think really speaks to that same mentality of doing work for the sake of the work, prioritizing the art that you're making in the processes that you're crafting. That goes back to that thing in Shanley or the Cahn Auditorium, and that speaks to Michael's talent, the talent of our creative team, and the incredible fortune of public support for a really thrilling, incisive experience of theater that has found its way to the largest stage in the country and probably the world.
MAX HERTEEN: First of all, great side quest that you've both been on-- just such fun projects. But, I mean, obviously, the one that we're here to talk about is this reunion on this project, which is such a great story. I just want to give you the floor now to just talk about the play. It's obviously in a Broadway run. It's been extended to October 27. Talk to me about the day-to-day life of working on a Broadway show.
What was it like getting it transferred over to Broadway? What was it like reconnecting on this? And what's the story? I mean, what is the ultimate goal that you want the audience to receive? How do you want people to feel watching this?
MICHAEL HERWITZ: So I guess I'll talk about what the play is about first and foremost, which is the play is-- it's a two-hander, meaning there's two actors onstage. It happens in real time. And it is about a young woman who has been placed on medical leave from her job at a big tech behemoth.
And she recently, before the play begins, has had this sort of mental breakdown in the office that went viral on the internet. And she is desperate to return to that job. And the play is her coming to meet this therapist who has been hired by the company to determine whether or not she is mentally fit enough to return to her position. But when she gets there, not everything is as it seems.
So that is the elevator pitch.
RUSSELL KAHN: There's a twist that we're not going to talk about, but head down to the Theater District to find out.
MAX HERTEEN: Yeah, you've got two months, everybody. Go listen. You've got to go watch it.
RUSSELL KAHN: Yeah.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Yeah. One of our-- when we first started doing the show downtown, I think it was our second or third preview. And, obviously, Russell and I were trying to-- and all of our team were just asking everybody we've ever met to try to get tickets in those first weeks, basically so that hopefully word of mouth would spread.
And so there was-- our second or third performance, there was a bunch of people from Northwestern who were there, and they all went to this bar after the show. And after the show, I had to do something else, and that's why I ended up showing up to the bar like two hours after the show had already come down.
And when I got to the bar, these people were in the most heated discussion I've ever witnessed about a play, like quoting lines that fly by with word perfect exactitude, really rehashing every moment of this piece. And when I saw this happen, I thought, oh, I think something's happening. I think this play is sparking something in people.
And I really, to be honest, did not anticipate that. I think we were not really sure that first night if what we had made any kind of sense or if it would resonate with anyone. And that performance, hearing how people go-- people like to leave our play, and they like to go home and talk about it, which is really fun for us. And I think a lot of the reason why the play has reached so many audiences is it had this really extraordinary, wild sort of unprecedented journey to Broadway. It's because in the most water cooler HBO kind of way, people really want to commune with other people and talk about it. So that has been a really-- and the play asks more questions than it gives answers, which I think is rare in the theater, and has also made it a piece that people really like to think about when they go home.
So I love when I get a text from people who are like, it's five days later, and I'm in the shower, and I'm still thinking about it. That's the highest praise I think that we've gotten. So that's what the play's about.
And then the day to day, I mean, it's been-- I think what's been sort of amazing about it is watching it start from it's like StuCo do-it-yourself roots to this thing that has infrastructure. When we started downtown, I mean, Russell, Danielle, Hannah, Max, myself, we were kind of doing every job. We all were doing everything. When the show sold out, there was no one. There was no email that you could send people to put on the wait list. We were sort of making up all of the systems as we were going.
We had a Slack channel that was like we couldn't sleep at night. I mean, it didn't stop for about five weeks straight, like constant notifications of the five of us trying to literally just problem solve. How do we get Russell's aunt in to see the show? How do we get Ben Platt tickets tomorrow?
RUSSELL KAHN: Can we get Julianne Moore in? How do you get Billy Crudup in?
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Yeah. And so I think the change has been now there are people who get hired and have real salaries that are paid to do what we were all doing ourselves. And it's taken some pressure off of me, because now the show just runs, and I don't really have to do anything about it. It just happens with me or without me. And I think Russ feels the same way. Like, he and I actually aren't as involved in the day-to-day anymore. That is now someone else's position.
But it's been funny to watch this evolution of watching the kids grow up or watching this thing feel like it's like-- watching this play grow it's adult bones. Which really just means that now there's budget to pay people to do their jobs at a professional level versus truly making it up as you go, which is really what we were doing for the first 10 weeks. Do you agree, Russ?
RUSSELL KAHN: Yes, 100%. I will also say that as teams get larger, it's like the onus of people at their helms to keep them feeling small, and to keep culture, and to maintain a oneness of vision, which falls heavier on Michael's shoulders now. And so it's not all just that it gets easier.
But I do agree with you that it's night and day to have resources that afford support for people who can then focus on things like maintaining culture and being there at the theater when your understudy might make her Broadway debut for the first time.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Totally. I saw the show last night for the first time in a while, and I was just like-- I just was sort of marveling, like, where are we? What's happened?
I think when you're leading up to a show opening, you kind of can't think about that because you have so much work to do. And now that the show is open, I'm not here every night anymore. You sort of can look back and think, wow, I can't believe we're on this stage.
So, I've really tried, in terms of culture, to just preserve a sense of wonder about all of this, because we don't have to be chill about it. This is not normal, the fact that a bunch of kids who made a play by themselves get that play to Broadway in 10 months. That isn't how it usually works. So I always wanted us to take a moment to just think we're really lucky. We're really, really lucky that we get to do this.
And no matter what stage we're on or how many seats or what people are paying to be there in the room with us, at the end of the day, it's still just us. At the end of the day, we still are these kids who put up this play ourselves, and that is still how it feels, I think, in its ethos.
MAX HERTEEN: As I was hearing you talk about the reactions people are having to the show, I want to ask you one final show-related question about the story itself. What do you think stirs so much emotion in people? And when you think about the story and the characters, how did you know it was the right story to tell at this moment?
RUSSELL KAHN: It's something that we've contended with throughout this whole process as it has hit so many people so hard and in different ways. We as a team, as we've continued to hone what's on stage, have been given that impossible question to each other constantly. And I'm sure Michael has a different answer.
Something that I go back to again and again as someone who is fascinated by technology, and the internet, and its impact on our culture, and how we perceive ourselves and our roles in community, I think it's really hard to write about the internet well. I think it's even harder to do so well in the theater than it is on screen. And I think the play Job that we have running right now does that better than almost anything I've encountered.
And without speaking all the time-- I've seen a lot about the internet that speaks through abstraction, through metaphor, which is still really valuable. I think this play speaks really precisely, and really clearly, and really articulately to what it's like to be a young person in a mediated world, finding meaning, approaching questions of truth versus fiction and delusion, and then what it means to be that person and relate to someone who comes from another generation and has another set of assumptions but at the end of the day is still, at their core, the same makeup, the same human, the same breath. I think it does that really beautifully and really uniquely, and I think we're all really thirsty for that as a culture.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Yeah, that's such a beautiful answer. I think it is-- the play depicts a conversation that I think a lot of people want to have but don't know how to have and aren't really having. And the play is about a young woman, someone in their 20s discussing something with someone in their 70s.
And I think that that, at least in my family, is not-- I don't have actually access to another person's worldview really, and especially when our world is progressively more and more and more siloed. I do think the play is about looking across difference and sort of meeting in the middle. And I think that really resonates with people.
I also think, to me, the play is so much about courage. It's so much about the persistence of our humanity even in the most dire of circumstances. And I don't know if that's something the audience necessarily knows they're walking away with, but I do think it's kind of the undertow of the play that keeps the play moving along.
And so I think that when people-- the things that mean the most to me, when people say that I can kind of see the humanity shining through the dark, I think is really what I was focused on--
RUSSELL KAHN: Yeah.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: --and one of the reasons people sort of like taking a bite out of the apple.
RUSSELL KAHN: Totally. And we have this-- we have a great cookie with two sides on it. There's a really wonderful thriller arc that a lot of people who have not grown up in artistic spaces, that are not completely inculcated in the world of storytelling, can latch on to the thriller arc really quickly, while also then being fed by all those deeper themes about courage, about optimism and moments of darkness. And so I think the marriage of those two things has been really effective for people, both whom love the theater and go all the time and for whom this is like the first play they've seen in 10 years, which has been really fun to watch as well.
MAX HERTEEN: A reminder to anyone who's interested, Job has been continued on Broadway through October 27. So no more spoilers, but thank you so much, again, for talking me through the play. It's so exciting.
And before I let you guys go, I want to ask you just a couple fun questions. First of all, when you think about very broadly the work that you do, what's the dream? Is it an existing play that you want to make your own, or is the dream continuing to do original work and sort of continuing the trajectory that you've been on?
RUSSELL KAHN: I've never given this version of the answer, but I think my dream is to produce the next really great coming-of-age movie that cuts through and becomes evergreen. Michael's laughing. He already knows this. But my American studies thesis was about coming-of-age movies.
And I live constantly thinking about Rob Reiner's Stand by Me, and I would just love to get to make something like that someday. And I really never have, which is kind of surprising, because I've done so many random things. But working with kids is really hard. And so that might be the one thing I haven't done yet at any level.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: And this is such a corny answer, but I really feel like I'm living it. Like I just-- and it's crazy, because I'm 28 years old, so I hopefully have a lot of time to build some new dreams up. And I look forward to that. And I think something that-- a really sort of beautiful moment about achieving something earlier than you thought you might is that you now get to really open your imagination to what else, what new dreams will follow.
But I think something Russell has said to me all the time-- we talk about all the time-- is what you're really trying to do as an artist, especially a theater artist, especially in New York, is at the end of the day, you're trying just to make meaningful work with people who are meaningful to you. And that is 1,000% how this play came to be. It's a meaningful work, a play that I really care about and believe in, produced by many of my very dearest friends who are really meaningful to me.
And then throughout this piece I've gotten to know a lot more people and make other really amazing friends. And so I kind of feel like-- I really feel it's this, like, hey, kids, let's put on a show mentality. All of these people who I care so much about are now getting to do what they care about on this big stage to 500 people every single night, and on Broadway. They're even getting paid to do it, and they're getting paid OK money.
It's kind of just this crazy dream. It kind of can't get better. So I just want to-- until October 27, I really just want to savor every moment of this, because we don't know when this is going to come around again, and it very well might not. So I just want to enjoy this moment I'm in, and come December, I'll figure out what's next.
MAX HERTEEN: And whether this is very specific advice or just general philosophical advice, what would you tell someone who is a Northwestern senior or someone who's just graduated, who has that creative spark but might not know where to go with it?
MICHAEL HERWITZ: I'm going to sound like a broken record, but to me, it's just your greatest resource are to your right and to your left. Your friends are going to pull you up, and it's your job to pull them up. And that's how anything happens. No one's going to come down from on high to give you something or to bring you up with them.
It's not someone who you perceive to have more power than you. It's the people who are right at your shoulders, who are in your class, who are sitting next to you in Hinman or walking down Sheridan with you. Those people are going to be how you grow. So invest in those relationships is what I would say.
RUSSELL KAHN: Yeah, I'd co-sign that and add the artists that inspire you on Instagram, they might respond.
MAX HERTEEN: I'll close with these two questions. First of all, are there any Northwestern shoutouts that you'd like to give-- people places, projects, anything you miss or that's important to you?
RUSSELL KAHN: I'd shout out Professor Shauna Bernstein, who's in the history department and was the chair of the American Studies Department during my time at Northwestern, who opened up a life of intellectual and cultural critique to me that was not open before I was able to study in her classroom.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Another shout out to Northwestern's Jewish Theater Ensemble. I don't know who any of you are anymore, but I know that you're still there, and I know that you're still producing three shows a year. And I know that you're celebrating your 30th anniversary very soon. So I'm thinking about you. [INAUDIBLE] to love, as we like to say.
RUSSELL KAHN: [INAUDIBLE] to love.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: And then, yeah, maybe a shout out to whoever's living in the Hinman and Davis apartment complex. We see you.
MAX HERTEEN: Final question-- if you could work with one entertainer, whether this is a singer, actor, producer, or whatever it might be-- can work with one entertainer for any production. Who would you work with, and would you have a production in mind that you'd want to work with them on?
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Max, you did an episode with Kathryn Hahn that I listened to in preparation for this episode. And she talked about being Ophelia in Hamlet at Northwestern. And I do not know Kathryn Hahn. I'm only a fan. I think she's amazing.
And from the moment I saw her-- which I guess I became a real fan of her doing in Transparent when she was Rabbi Raquel in the series Transparent. But I think Kathryn Hahn is made for the stage. I think she should be coming to New York pronto to do a play.
Kathryn, you pick whatever play you want to do. I'm a Broadway director now. I've got some cred. Let's do it. That's what I would say.
RUSSELL KAHN: Amazing. And I want to produce a production of Hamlet directed by Michael starring Kathryn Hahn.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: As Ophelia?
RUSSELL KAHN: As Ophelia.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Yeah, or maybe she should be Hamlet. That could be fun.
RUSSELL KAHN: Ooh.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Or Polonius, I don't know. We'll figure it out.
RUSSELL KAHN: Yeah, we'll slide into your DMs.
MAX HERTEEN: Yeah. So this sounds kind of doable to me. And if she's listening, I mean, this is a smaller gap to bridge.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: We're cooking it up. It's going to start here. It's the intersection of intersections. We're going to get it going.
MAX HERTEEN: Like Russell just said, DMs are always open.
RUSSELL KAHN: Yes.
MAX HERTEEN: Guys, this has been so much fun. Russell, Michael, congratulations on everything. Thank you so much for being here.
RUSSELL KAHN: Thank you.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
RUSSELL KAHN: Thanks for having us. So excited to be chatting.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: It's such a thrill. Thank you.
MAX HERTEEN: First of all, huge congratulations to both of you. This is such a unique project, and I've got a ton of questions for you as we go. But let's kick it all the way back-- not really all the way back. You guys are pretty recent alums-- thinking about coming to Northwestern in the first place. What brought you to Evanston, and what did you study?
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Russell, you literally have to go first for my answer to make sense.
RUSSELL KAHN: You know, I was an early decision Northwestern applicant. I'm class of 2016. I had gone to a public performing arts magnet in New York City, LaGuardia, for high school, and so had been a theater kid at a young age. I'm sure Michael will touch on this, but we were there together as well. I'm like a year or two older than Michael.
But I think what first attracted me to Northwestern was the richness of the theater community, the DIY mentality of it. I remember visiting schools with parents ahead of that decision. I saw a production of Miss Julie or After Miss Julie, whichever that Strindberg play is, in the Shanley Pavilion.
And I remember me and my mom being like, what is this play? What is this production? It makes no sense. But at the same time, being so invigorated to be in a tiny room with people trying something out in a way that felt incredibly authentic and on their own terms, which is what an arts education experience or any education experience should be. And so I think that was what really sealed the deal for me.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: That's such an amazing answer, Russell. My answer, in short, is Russell. As Russell said, we went to high school together. Russell was two years above me.
And I looked up to Russell so much when I was in high school and sort of had a little bit of like a North Star, like, follow that person. And so when someone who you look up to goes to a school, then you're like, I should go to that school.
So there were a couple of voices in my high school who said, I think Northwestern is a good match for you. And when I knew that Russell was going, I was like, OK.
And I remember texting you, Russ. I remember this very distinctly. It must have been my junior year, maybe your freshman year-- my junior high school year, freshman year at NU. And I was like, hey, it's Michael Herwitz. I got your number from Blaze. I'm thinking about applying to Northwestern. Could we talk about it? And you were so nice, and we did talk about it. And then yeah, when I got to campus, Russell was this older brother who set me on the course for my whole Northwestern career.
But also when I went to visit-- similarly to Russell, I went to go see The Dolphin Show, which was happening when I was there. And it was My Fair Lady, and there was a girl from the town that I grew up in, Garcia, who was working on the show, and she was on her first run. So she said, hey, come up with me, and we can watch from the balcony together where the entire team sits. So on opening night of The Dolphin Show, it was like the entire creative team and then me as the [INAUDIBLE].
And I think similarly, it was sort of not necessarily about the show on the stage, but it was about being in the community of the people watching and really watching them watch it. And I thought, oh, my gosh, I want to be-- I want to be in this balcony with these kids. I want to be making this thing. I didn't know that students could do all of that themselves without any real adult hands. And so this short of just sheer willpower of the Northwestern student body I think is really what sealed the deal for me.
RUSSELL KAHN: And I should add, Michael went on to direct The Dolphin Show his senior year, so very full circle.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: I did. I did.
MAX HERTEEN: Honestly, I think that full circle is probably the word I would use to describe this podcast, because there's always that story of reconnecting with somebody, having some kind of experience that brings you to campus, and then you end up doing it.
And, I mean, Michael, you already mentioned it sort of having this built-in role model with Russell. Were there any other people, whether it's role models or even experiences at Northwestern, that really sort of shaped your college experience or even your professional experience years later?
MICHAEL HERWITZ: It's like everything and nothing. It's sort of hard to-- it sort of feels like the whole experience was just that. I mean, I think I will say something I sort of regret about college-- not to start on a more sour note, but I really don't think that I forged a ton of relationships with professors. I think what I really did is I forged a lot of connections with the fellow students. I really felt like my mentors were lateral mentors. It was my classmates.
Most of my learning happened in Shanley Pavilion, and in the Louis Room, and in the spaces where the student theater puts up work. That was my biggest-- sort of my biggest growth happened side by side.
But I do think that mentality is an extraordinarily direct 100 to 100 ratio-- is how our job came to be in the world. I mean, it really-- I feel like if the Student Theater Coalition at Northwestern University didn't exist, there is no world in which Job would have happened and no world which would have happened at the Soho Playhouse and this initial run that we all made together.
I mean, I feel like Russell and I were constantly drawing upon our StuCo experience to lead us through that process. And I think that's something that you and I both, Russell, in the 10 years that we've been adults-- not so much. I think a little less than 10 years. But I feel like I think Russell and I kind of learned what it means to make theater on your own terms, and we've then applied that everywhere we've gone since. And so I feel like that's just the--
RUSSELL KAHN: Yeah.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: You know, it's all the same.
RUSSELL KAHN: If there's anyone to shout out for making that training ground available to us as students, I think Tracy Gibson-Jackson would be first on the list in my heart. I think she sits in, whether it's called the Student Activities Office or Student Affairs Office. But Tracy worked tirelessly.
I think making work creatively when you're a young person feels incredibly high stakes. Everything feels so life or death, like whether you get the rights to this classic musical, or whether the University allows you to argue that it's fair use for you to take a popular book and try it out on stage. It feels so vibrantly important to a young person.
And I think for someone who is an adult, who has grown up, who is not an artist, to sit with us in that same spirit of urgency is really rare and really makes a lot of the work that we did at Northwestern as students that inform the work we're able to do as adults possible.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: For sure. And also, I'll just add one more person to that who I think is very similar to that, which is where Russell and I really got to know each other, really started making work together on the Jewish Theater Ensemble, which is a specific board in the student theater umbrella. And Michael Simon, who's the executive director of Northwestern Hillel, was our faculty advisor for JTA and so I think very much similar to Tracy.
He also sat with us as we were, I remember, grappling with both the interpersonal complications of running a student theater board with all of your friends, and also this extremely high stakes artistic mandate we all felt we had. So big shout out to Tracy and to Michael.
MAX HERTEEN: Talk to me just about your first work experiences. What happened for either of you or for both of you, I should say, after Northwestern?
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Sorry, I'm realizing in real time that I think my first job was Russell hired me to stage manage an immersive sort of cinema/dance physical theater experience.
RUSSELL KAHN: If anyone listening has ever seen a video of the Sphere, picture us doing that on a budget of $30,000 in a Brooklyn warehouse in 2017 and Michael reining in all of that chaos as stage manager.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: And Russell being both in it, and producing it, and literally driving trucks into a random, very commercial, but also very raw airplane hangar in Williamsburg. I will say I can't-- Russell, I admit to you now, it was not my favorite job I've ever had.
RUSSELL KAHN: [INAUDIBLE]
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Yeah. But yes, I actually think literally the first commitment I had post-graduation, like six weeks later, was with Russell and another Northwestern graduate-- two other Northwestern graduates, [INAUDIBLE] and [INAUDIBLE] to work with them on this piece called Arcade Americana. That was my first gig. What was your first gig out of school, Russ?
RUSSELL KAHN: My first gig out of school. I was a mailroom clerk at Creative Artists Agency in Los Angeles, which is the very old Hollywood, foot-in-the-door, kind of paying your dues system. And I was promoted onto a desk there working for a prominent motion picture literary agent.
And after that, I missed New York. I missed the theater and was able to move internally within the company to work in the creative-- the theater department at CAA, after which I left to work on this experimental theater piece with Michael.
MAX HERTEEN: And Russell, this one is specifically for you. I want to ask you about the work that you have done with Scrap Paper Pictures. And for anyone who's listening who might not know, just give the rundown on what this company is and how did you get into that role?
RUSSELL KAHN: Yeah, absolutely. So Scrap Paper Pictures is a production company founded by actress and producer Rachel Brosnahan, who starred on The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, among other things. And I've been at the helm of the company for about a year now, but working with Rachel for almost six.
We produce television through a first-look deal at Amazon Studios, and we produce features independently with a broader network of partners. We're committed to artist-first stories that expand the world we recognize on screen and stage.
And the way I ended up meeting Rachel, shortly after Michael and I were in that Brooklyn air hangar toiling away, clearing years of dust out of mostly unused warehouse to put up this show that, again, felt so vital and so urgent-- all the idealism of youth. I was waking up at 5:00 AM every morning at the time and then coming down to this warehouse to unlock it with Michael and was absolutely convinced that AEG was going to come buy us tomorrow, and it would run for 30 years, and was preaching the gospel that immersive entertainment was the future.
And then after the show ended and our space grant ran out, people were not boring down our front doors to give us $14 million to buy a nightclub and start doing theater at the center of it, which was really what my logical plan for next steps was. And when that didn't fall into my and our laps, I was in a place of indecision and was not totally sure what my right next step was.
I felt like I'd moved to LA. I'd tried this sort of wheeling, dealing Hollywood thing, and it didn't feel quite right to me. I had tried my version of the theater thing that felt truest to me with this show, and there wasn't a clear path forward for it. And so I wasn't sure where my place was.
And I was temping around to get more experience and met Rachel on set of The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel as a PA. And we connected really, really quickly, realized that we cared about similar stories and had similar ideas about how they would meet audiences.
And I started working as her assistant, which was this really dream job at first, because I got to-- the asks were make sure she's hydrated, run lines with her. And I was like, what an incredible opportunity to stand next to this person from the second they receive a script to the moment they walk off set, giving this incredibly, critically well-received performance.
And did that-- Rachel received the First Look deal from Amazon to produce television and so started the company. I came over to that side of things and have been able to climb my way up internally here over the past five, six years.
MAX HERTEEN: Michael I'm going to basically turn it over to you. Similar question, just walk me through the journey. I know you've been really in and around theater sort of your whole life. What other projects have you been working on up until now?
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Yeah, so I was a child actor when I was a kid, so I had a really very strong and intense start to theater. Especially, I think, when you're a boy who sings and you live within 45 minutes of New York City, it's easier than for most folks to start a professional career. So I had done that when I was a kid.
And by the time I got to the end of high school, I knew that I didn't want to act at all anymore. I remember coming to Northwestern and thinking, like, well, if the project is right, maybe I'll act. Which is, first of all, a ridiculous thing to say. And B, nonesuch project ever really emerged.
So I guess by the time I finished Northwestern, I was like, well, it's definitely behind me now. Plus, I think Northwestern, I was really saying I wanted to be a director. And I got a lot of-- I grew a lot of confidence at Northwestern, because I had gotten to direct a bunch of projects.
I did a bunch of musicals, which are sort of big in scale. And I think some directors are very frightened of musicals. I'm actually very frightened of plays. Musicals is kind of where I feel most comfortable. So I kind of felt like I had built out a little bit of a niche, and my friends and the Northwestern community was so affirming of that.
And so I came to New York right after graduation, coming to make a career as a director. I assisted a lot that first year. I worked at MCC Theater. I had interned at off-Broadway theater company, had interned there every summer of college, so I knew them. So I went back to there.
And I assisted at Signature Theater. And I got a job working at the front desk at Flywheel Sports, which was an indoor cycling studio.
RUSSELL KAHN: I forgot about that.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Yes, I would get up, similar to Russell, like 4:30 in the morning, and I'd work the morning shift from 5:00 to 9:30. And then I'd run down to Signature to have rehearsal starting at 10:00 and be in rehearsal 10:00 to 6:00, then go home and go to sleep and do it all the next day.
And lived with two Northwestern theater majors-- then we kind of started figuring things out together. And then a year and a half into that process, the pandemic hit. So I was like, OK, theater is totally dead and is never going to come back. And I was trying to figure out what I was going to do, and I'd only ever really had this one passion.
My dad really wanted me to double major at Northwestern, and I didn't do that. I was so silly. I should have, but I kind of was like, I'll take a million other classes. And I sort of lie now when I tell people, I kind studied history, and I kind studied English, and I kind studied Jewish studies and gender studies, but I don't have any piece of paper that says I did any of that, just what I was curious about. I wanted to do American studies like Russell did, but I didn't get in, so I had to make it myself.
And then in the pandemic, I ended up working at a synagogue. This is another strange Russell connection. I ended up working-- many of my friends from college all grew up going to the same synagogue on the Upper West Side of New York City, including Russell.
RUSSELL KAHN: [INAUDIBLE]
MICHAEL HERWITZ: I was applying for jobs, thinking maybe I was going to go to rabbinical school. I'm not very religious, but I kind of thought that if I couldn't direct theater, what is the next best thing that requires a similar skill set and a similar personhood? And I wanted a job that felt like it really used all of me the way that I think theater directing and being an artist uses all of you.
Another funny thing about the show that we're talking about is about a person who wants a job that sort of uses all of her. So for me, I thought maybe being a rabbi would be that. That brought me to Rodef Shalom. I ended up feeling like I can't be a rabbi, because I can't be needed by that many people. That feels too intense for me. And I was there. Theater started to come back.
RUSSELL KAHN: Being an agent for someone's spiritual life.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Yeah, exactly. And theater started to come back. I kind of felt this real itch. And I went to all these shows that were having their reopening nights on Broadway, and I thought this is-- I've got to figure out how to get back over here. And it took me a little bit of time to figure that out.
And as I was figuring that out, this play Job came into my life. And I'm very dear friends with this playwright named Max Friedlich who I had been-- throughout that time working the front desk at Flywheel Sports, throughout assisting other directors, Max and I were starting to work on plays together. Oh, I also had a theater company. I should say this.
I had a theater company that I created with my best friend from high school, really, again, in the model of the Chicago ensemble-based theater companies. Because when I was at Northwestern, I was looking at Steppenwolf, I was looking at Lookingglass.
And I was seeing this sort of mentality, this ensemble mentality of how those theaters functioned, which doesn't exist in New York, totally in the same way or not as prominently. And I thought, oh, I really want to create this with my friends. And so we had created this theater company. That's why I started working with playwrights, creating new work under that umbrella.
Max Friedrich was one of the playwrights we worked with. He and I worked together one time, and it was a really-- we balanced each other out in this really beautiful way. And it became this really symbiotic artistic partnership, and I became the go-to person for him. So whenever he had something new, I would usually be one of the first people who would get it. And one of those plays was called Job.
And he was going to submit it to this festival at Soho Playhouse. We were to run it for one night only in this competition where there were like 30 pieces and some of them were clowning and some of them were musicals. And we had this weird little play.
And it was a-- if we were to win the competition at the end of the day, then we would be eligible to have a two or three-night run at the Soho Playhouse in their calendar the following year. And so we ended up winning this competition after two rounds of voting and judgment, and the prize at the end of that was not only two or three nights, but actually was proposed to us as a two or three-week engagement that we would do at the Soho Playhouse.
We thought, well, that's really cool, but we're going to need a producer, because we can't do all this ourselves. And so the first question was, who do we know? Who is someone who we know who's like scrappy, resourceful, talented, hungry, passionate, and who's willing to drive a U-Haul at 1:00 in the morning with all of the props? And the answer was clearly Russell Kahn-- was the only person we could think of.
We said, hey, Russ, we've been talking to you for a long time. Would you be willing to read this play and maybe think about coming on board and helping us get this up? Russell said, absolutely. I actually have a friend who's looking for a project like this named Danielle. Can I bring her to this meeting? We were like, sure. I was like, we have a friend named Hannah. We're going to bring her to the meeting.
So then the five of us all get on this big Zoom call one fateful day and decided that the five of us would go in and create this play together. And that's the play that, once we formed our team, we went back to Soho Playhouse. They said, hey, instead of two weeks, we'll give you five weeks.
We started running the show. Five weeks turned into nine weeks. Nine weeks turned into a commercial transfer at a different off-Broadway theater. And then that production turned into a Broadway production that is now-- is going to have a show at 7:00 tonight. So it's truly like a fairy tale.
RUSSELL KAHN: All in the span of about a year.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Yeah, in about 10 months all this happened.
RUSSELL KAHN: Yeah, which I think really speaks to that same mentality of doing work for the sake of the work, prioritizing the art that you're making in the processes that you're crafting. That goes back to that thing in Shanley or the Cahn Auditorium, and that speaks to Michael's talent, the talent of our creative team, and the incredible fortune of public support for a really thrilling, incisive experience of theater that has found its way to the largest stage in the country and probably the world.
MAX HERTEEN: First of all, great side quest that you've both been on-- just such fun projects. But, I mean, obviously, the one that we're here to talk about is this reunion on this project, which is such a great story. I just want to give you the floor now to just talk about the play. It's obviously in a Broadway run. It's been extended to October 27. Talk to me about the day-to-day life of working on a Broadway show.
What was it like getting it transferred over to Broadway? What was it like reconnecting on this? And what's the story? I mean, what is the ultimate goal that you want the audience to receive? How do you want people to feel watching this?
MICHAEL HERWITZ: So I guess I'll talk about what the play is about first and foremost, which is the play is-- it's a two-hander, meaning there's two actors onstage. It happens in real time. And it is about a young woman who has been placed on medical leave from her job at a big tech behemoth.
And she recently, before the play begins, has had this sort of mental breakdown in the office that went viral on the internet. And she is desperate to return to that job. And the play is her coming to meet this therapist who has been hired by the company to determine whether or not she is mentally fit enough to return to her position. But when she gets there, not everything is as it seems.
So that is the elevator pitch.
RUSSELL KAHN: There's a twist that we're not going to talk about, but head down to the Theater District to find out.
MAX HERTEEN: Yeah, you've got two months, everybody. Go listen. You've got to go watch it.
RUSSELL KAHN: Yeah.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Yeah. One of our-- when we first started doing the show downtown, I think it was our second or third preview. And, obviously, Russell and I were trying to-- and all of our team were just asking everybody we've ever met to try to get tickets in those first weeks, basically so that hopefully word of mouth would spread.
And so there was-- our second or third performance, there was a bunch of people from Northwestern who were there, and they all went to this bar after the show. And after the show, I had to do something else, and that's why I ended up showing up to the bar like two hours after the show had already come down.
And when I got to the bar, these people were in the most heated discussion I've ever witnessed about a play, like quoting lines that fly by with word perfect exactitude, really rehashing every moment of this piece. And when I saw this happen, I thought, oh, I think something's happening. I think this play is sparking something in people.
And I really, to be honest, did not anticipate that. I think we were not really sure that first night if what we had made any kind of sense or if it would resonate with anyone. And that performance, hearing how people go-- people like to leave our play, and they like to go home and talk about it, which is really fun for us. And I think a lot of the reason why the play has reached so many audiences is it had this really extraordinary, wild sort of unprecedented journey to Broadway. It's because in the most water cooler HBO kind of way, people really want to commune with other people and talk about it. So that has been a really-- and the play asks more questions than it gives answers, which I think is rare in the theater, and has also made it a piece that people really like to think about when they go home.
So I love when I get a text from people who are like, it's five days later, and I'm in the shower, and I'm still thinking about it. That's the highest praise I think that we've gotten. So that's what the play's about.
And then the day to day, I mean, it's been-- I think what's been sort of amazing about it is watching it start from it's like StuCo do-it-yourself roots to this thing that has infrastructure. When we started downtown, I mean, Russell, Danielle, Hannah, Max, myself, we were kind of doing every job. We all were doing everything. When the show sold out, there was no one. There was no email that you could send people to put on the wait list. We were sort of making up all of the systems as we were going.
We had a Slack channel that was like we couldn't sleep at night. I mean, it didn't stop for about five weeks straight, like constant notifications of the five of us trying to literally just problem solve. How do we get Russell's aunt in to see the show? How do we get Ben Platt tickets tomorrow?
RUSSELL KAHN: Can we get Julianne Moore in? How do you get Billy Crudup in?
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Yeah. And so I think the change has been now there are people who get hired and have real salaries that are paid to do what we were all doing ourselves. And it's taken some pressure off of me, because now the show just runs, and I don't really have to do anything about it. It just happens with me or without me. And I think Russ feels the same way. Like, he and I actually aren't as involved in the day-to-day anymore. That is now someone else's position.
But it's been funny to watch this evolution of watching the kids grow up or watching this thing feel like it's like-- watching this play grow it's adult bones. Which really just means that now there's budget to pay people to do their jobs at a professional level versus truly making it up as you go, which is really what we were doing for the first 10 weeks. Do you agree, Russ?
RUSSELL KAHN: Yes, 100%. I will also say that as teams get larger, it's like the onus of people at their helms to keep them feeling small, and to keep culture, and to maintain a oneness of vision, which falls heavier on Michael's shoulders now. And so it's not all just that it gets easier.
But I do agree with you that it's night and day to have resources that afford support for people who can then focus on things like maintaining culture and being there at the theater when your understudy might make her Broadway debut for the first time.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Totally. I saw the show last night for the first time in a while, and I was just like-- I just was sort of marveling, like, where are we? What's happened?
I think when you're leading up to a show opening, you kind of can't think about that because you have so much work to do. And now that the show is open, I'm not here every night anymore. You sort of can look back and think, wow, I can't believe we're on this stage.
So, I've really tried, in terms of culture, to just preserve a sense of wonder about all of this, because we don't have to be chill about it. This is not normal, the fact that a bunch of kids who made a play by themselves get that play to Broadway in 10 months. That isn't how it usually works. So I always wanted us to take a moment to just think we're really lucky. We're really, really lucky that we get to do this.
And no matter what stage we're on or how many seats or what people are paying to be there in the room with us, at the end of the day, it's still just us. At the end of the day, we still are these kids who put up this play ourselves, and that is still how it feels, I think, in its ethos.
MAX HERTEEN: As I was hearing you talk about the reactions people are having to the show, I want to ask you one final show-related question about the story itself. What do you think stirs so much emotion in people? And when you think about the story and the characters, how did you know it was the right story to tell at this moment?
RUSSELL KAHN: It's something that we've contended with throughout this whole process as it has hit so many people so hard and in different ways. We as a team, as we've continued to hone what's on stage, have been given that impossible question to each other constantly. And I'm sure Michael has a different answer.
Something that I go back to again and again as someone who is fascinated by technology, and the internet, and its impact on our culture, and how we perceive ourselves and our roles in community, I think it's really hard to write about the internet well. I think it's even harder to do so well in the theater than it is on screen. And I think the play Job that we have running right now does that better than almost anything I've encountered.
And without speaking all the time-- I've seen a lot about the internet that speaks through abstraction, through metaphor, which is still really valuable. I think this play speaks really precisely, and really clearly, and really articulately to what it's like to be a young person in a mediated world, finding meaning, approaching questions of truth versus fiction and delusion, and then what it means to be that person and relate to someone who comes from another generation and has another set of assumptions but at the end of the day is still, at their core, the same makeup, the same human, the same breath. I think it does that really beautifully and really uniquely, and I think we're all really thirsty for that as a culture.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Yeah, that's such a beautiful answer. I think it is-- the play depicts a conversation that I think a lot of people want to have but don't know how to have and aren't really having. And the play is about a young woman, someone in their 20s discussing something with someone in their 70s.
And I think that that, at least in my family, is not-- I don't have actually access to another person's worldview really, and especially when our world is progressively more and more and more siloed. I do think the play is about looking across difference and sort of meeting in the middle. And I think that really resonates with people.
I also think, to me, the play is so much about courage. It's so much about the persistence of our humanity even in the most dire of circumstances. And I don't know if that's something the audience necessarily knows they're walking away with, but I do think it's kind of the undertow of the play that keeps the play moving along.
And so I think that when people-- the things that mean the most to me, when people say that I can kind of see the humanity shining through the dark, I think is really what I was focused on--
RUSSELL KAHN: Yeah.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: --and one of the reasons people sort of like taking a bite out of the apple.
RUSSELL KAHN: Totally. And we have this-- we have a great cookie with two sides on it. There's a really wonderful thriller arc that a lot of people who have not grown up in artistic spaces, that are not completely inculcated in the world of storytelling, can latch on to the thriller arc really quickly, while also then being fed by all those deeper themes about courage, about optimism and moments of darkness. And so I think the marriage of those two things has been really effective for people, both whom love the theater and go all the time and for whom this is like the first play they've seen in 10 years, which has been really fun to watch as well.
MAX HERTEEN: A reminder to anyone who's interested, Job has been continued on Broadway through October 27. So no more spoilers, but thank you so much, again, for talking me through the play. It's so exciting.
And before I let you guys go, I want to ask you just a couple fun questions. First of all, when you think about very broadly the work that you do, what's the dream? Is it an existing play that you want to make your own, or is the dream continuing to do original work and sort of continuing the trajectory that you've been on?
RUSSELL KAHN: I've never given this version of the answer, but I think my dream is to produce the next really great coming-of-age movie that cuts through and becomes evergreen. Michael's laughing. He already knows this. But my American studies thesis was about coming-of-age movies.
And I live constantly thinking about Rob Reiner's Stand by Me, and I would just love to get to make something like that someday. And I really never have, which is kind of surprising, because I've done so many random things. But working with kids is really hard. And so that might be the one thing I haven't done yet at any level.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: And this is such a corny answer, but I really feel like I'm living it. Like I just-- and it's crazy, because I'm 28 years old, so I hopefully have a lot of time to build some new dreams up. And I look forward to that. And I think something that-- a really sort of beautiful moment about achieving something earlier than you thought you might is that you now get to really open your imagination to what else, what new dreams will follow.
But I think something Russell has said to me all the time-- we talk about all the time-- is what you're really trying to do as an artist, especially a theater artist, especially in New York, is at the end of the day, you're trying just to make meaningful work with people who are meaningful to you. And that is 1,000% how this play came to be. It's a meaningful work, a play that I really care about and believe in, produced by many of my very dearest friends who are really meaningful to me.
And then throughout this piece I've gotten to know a lot more people and make other really amazing friends. And so I kind of feel like-- I really feel it's this, like, hey, kids, let's put on a show mentality. All of these people who I care so much about are now getting to do what they care about on this big stage to 500 people every single night, and on Broadway. They're even getting paid to do it, and they're getting paid OK money.
It's kind of just this crazy dream. It kind of can't get better. So I just want to-- until October 27, I really just want to savor every moment of this, because we don't know when this is going to come around again, and it very well might not. So I just want to enjoy this moment I'm in, and come December, I'll figure out what's next.
MAX HERTEEN: And whether this is very specific advice or just general philosophical advice, what would you tell someone who is a Northwestern senior or someone who's just graduated, who has that creative spark but might not know where to go with it?
MICHAEL HERWITZ: I'm going to sound like a broken record, but to me, it's just your greatest resource are to your right and to your left. Your friends are going to pull you up, and it's your job to pull them up. And that's how anything happens. No one's going to come down from on high to give you something or to bring you up with them.
It's not someone who you perceive to have more power than you. It's the people who are right at your shoulders, who are in your class, who are sitting next to you in Hinman or walking down Sheridan with you. Those people are going to be how you grow. So invest in those relationships is what I would say.
RUSSELL KAHN: Yeah, I'd co-sign that and add the artists that inspire you on Instagram, they might respond.
MAX HERTEEN: I'll close with these two questions. First of all, are there any Northwestern shoutouts that you'd like to give-- people places, projects, anything you miss or that's important to you?
RUSSELL KAHN: I'd shout out Professor Shauna Bernstein, who's in the history department and was the chair of the American Studies Department during my time at Northwestern, who opened up a life of intellectual and cultural critique to me that was not open before I was able to study in her classroom.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Another shout out to Northwestern's Jewish Theater Ensemble. I don't know who any of you are anymore, but I know that you're still there, and I know that you're still producing three shows a year. And I know that you're celebrating your 30th anniversary very soon. So I'm thinking about you. [INAUDIBLE] to love, as we like to say.
RUSSELL KAHN: [INAUDIBLE] to love.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: And then, yeah, maybe a shout out to whoever's living in the Hinman and Davis apartment complex. We see you.
MAX HERTEEN: Final question-- if you could work with one entertainer, whether this is a singer, actor, producer, or whatever it might be-- can work with one entertainer for any production. Who would you work with, and would you have a production in mind that you'd want to work with them on?
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Max, you did an episode with Kathryn Hahn that I listened to in preparation for this episode. And she talked about being Ophelia in Hamlet at Northwestern. And I do not know Kathryn Hahn. I'm only a fan. I think she's amazing.
And from the moment I saw her-- which I guess I became a real fan of her doing in Transparent when she was Rabbi Raquel in the series Transparent. But I think Kathryn Hahn is made for the stage. I think she should be coming to New York pronto to do a play.
Kathryn, you pick whatever play you want to do. I'm a Broadway director now. I've got some cred. Let's do it. That's what I would say.
RUSSELL KAHN: Amazing. And I want to produce a production of Hamlet directed by Michael starring Kathryn Hahn.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: As Ophelia?
RUSSELL KAHN: As Ophelia.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Yeah, or maybe she should be Hamlet. That could be fun.
RUSSELL KAHN: Ooh.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: Or Polonius, I don't know. We'll figure it out.
RUSSELL KAHN: Yeah, we'll slide into your DMs.
MAX HERTEEN: Yeah. So this sounds kind of doable to me. And if she's listening, I mean, this is a smaller gap to bridge.
MICHAEL HERWITZ: We're cooking it up. It's going to start here. It's the intersection of intersections. We're going to get it going.
MAX HERTEEN: Like Russell just said, DMs are always open.
RUSSELL KAHN: Yes.
MAX HERTEEN: Guys, this has been so much fun. Russell, Michael, congratulations on everything. Thank you so much for being here.
RUSSELL KAHN: Thank you.
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