About this Episode
Episode 147: Published on Jan 11, 2024
Hahn and Sandler, who met on campus, discuss their time at Northwestern, finding their way in Hollywood, and working together in the industry.
Lunch Tray Management, with Kathryn Hahn ’95 and Ethan Sandler ’95
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MAX HERTEEN: Welcome back to Northwestern Intersections Northwestern Alumni Association podcast. We'll be talking to alums about their career paths and the lessons they've learned along the way. Our guests today form a true Northwestern power couple, writer and producer Ethan Sandler and actress Kathryn Hahn.
They met at Northwestern and even appeared together in the TV series Crossing Jordan. They've worked on countless memorable projects from New Girl and Meet The Robinsons to WandaVision and Private Life, just to name a few. They bring incredible insights on the world of Hollywood and successfully navigating roles and responsibilities in different genres.
We will dive into all these topics and more in this edition of Northwestern Intersections. Ethan Sandler and Kathryn Hahn, thank you so much for joining us.
KATHRYN HAHN: Thank you for having us, Max. It's so nice to be here.
ETHAN SANDLER: Good morning.
MAX HERTEEN: So let's first look back at your time at Northwestern. What brought you both to campus and what did you study?
KATHRYN HAHN: Ethan, I'll take this first one. I'm from Ohio. I'm from Cleveland. Money was tight. My parents were like, you can go to a state school. I worked really hard in high school. I went to an all girls Catholic high school and loved those nuns, but I really, really wanted-- I knew I wanted to be an actor since I was like in kindergarten. I just knew it. I just was like, I'm an actor. And it wasn't even like a choice. It just, I knew it from my inside.
And all the schools in Ohio were fantastic, but I also knew that I wanted a liberal arts education as well. So I visited schools in New York. I didn't really quite want to go just right into a conservatory program. And so my brain needed a liberal arts education, I think, at that point, at that age. And so Northwestern kind of fit all those-- it was far enough away from my beautiful family. So I could have some distance.
I'm a Midwesterner through and through and needed that weather change. And I really, I felt that it had a rigor, academic rigor. And also felt like I could dive deep into, for lack of a better word, I know it's cheese ball, but the craft of acting and get deep into the emotional core of what it is to be an actor.
So to have both of those things as an undergrad-- in undergrad, was pretty amazing. And also, had kind of a great selection of beautiful young men. And I happened to pick or find the hottest of the bunch. And we're still together to this day.
ETHAN SANDLER: Mhm. I didn't realize there was like a picking process. So I'm I--
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, yeah. That was interest-- that was a part of it.
ETHAN SANDLER: I'm glad I survived that. That was really beautifully said. I grew up outside of Seattle, but my parents were from Glencoe. They actually grew up across the street from each other. So Northwestern had always kind of loomed in our conversations about a place I could and maybe even should go. I had grandparents and an aunt that were nearby.
And I similarly grew up knowing with total certainty that I was a performer. And I had been acting since I could talk. And also wanted to study film. By the time we got to college, I was very interested in learning how to film make.
And Northwestern is and was unique in that they had such a strong theater acting program, and also a film, radio television program. So I was hoping that I could go and study film, but perform as much as I could on my own, which is what Northwestern provided in a really unique way. And I was excited to be near family and was weirdly, in a way that's funny looking back, kind of counter culturally-- like I was very comfortable being at a place that had a very firmly established culture and tone. So that I could kind of feel outside of it.
And I love that about Northwestern, that it did have such a strong Greek presence, and a sports presence, and like was very established, and still had room for a jackass like me that could be like, oh, dur, dur, dur, and smoke cigarettes at Norris and feel like I was cooly outside of it. You know what I mean? When of course--
KATHRYN HAHN: Yeah, you could raise your freak flag and feel, like, OK. There was room for everyone.
ETHAN SANDLER: Yeah. And then I met Kathryn. And then everything from there made sense.
MAX HERTEEN: So I have to ask this, because I've just been so curious. I have this amazing picture that you sent over from both of you at Norris when you were students. Was this early on in the Ethan Kathryn relationship? How did you get together on campus?
ETHAN SANDLER: I'll take this one, Kathryn.
KATHRYN HAHN: Please.
KATHRYN HAHN:
ETHAN SANDLER: That photo is, I think, from junior year. I'm guessing that because my head was shaved, and I was in a play in which I shaved my head. I think that's right. Yes, that was junior year. And--
KATHRYN HAHN: What play did you shave your head for?
ETHAN SANDLER: I think that I took Hamlet as an opportunity to shave my head. I remember I was the ghost and shaved my head bald. Kathryn was incredible as Ophelia in that production, by the way.
KATHRYN HAHN: A lot of people in there. Jason Winer was Hamlet.
ETHAN SANDLER: Yes, he very much was Hamlet. Yes. We met our first year of college. My very close and still dear friend, Daniel Milder-- Daniel Avi Epstein Miller from Seattle, Washington-- they went on a date. And Kathryn and her friend Alex came by the dormitory. And we met very briefly then. And then we had sort of mutual friends in common, I would say.
But it was the beginning of sophomore year where I remember really encountering Kathryn at the cafeteria, a very kind of bleary morning. Our mutual friend, James Oberlander, was having breakfast. I sat across from him. Kathryn came and joined the table. And in a matter of three minutes, was the funniest person I had ever encountered.
She gave me all the-- I know I've said this before, Kathryn . I'm sorry. She gave me all the material that I now see her give Uber drivers and watch them fall in love. Like, just the classic sort of, I grew up in Cleveland, Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, Al-- what was his name? Al-- Oh, damn it, the baseball player. Just--
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, Chapman? Ray Chapman?
ETHAN SANDLER: Albert Belle is who you referenced.
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
ETHAN SANDLER: I was like, she knows Albert Belle. Like, she burped. Like, all the shit that people all know completely. You know what I mean? And it worked on me. I was just like, who was that? And then it was parties mostly, right? We mostly just kind of saw each other socially.
And then, lastly, I saw her perform. I saw her perform in the famed Schenley Pavilion in a Mamet play called Edmond. And she was just so good and clearly operating on a level that the rest of us weren't as a performer. And especially at that time of my life, still today, that's what I respect. That's what drew me to her conclusively, was just watching her work was staggering.
KATHRYN HAHN: OK. Well, we heard Ethan-- I mean, that was beautiful. From what I recall, we both had hometown honeys when we first met, who were, of course, like whoa for them, it was not long. It was-- as soon as we met, it was not going to be that-- neither of them were going to last that long.
And I remember meeting him at the cafeteria. And I remember being very, very-- well, what happens with me sometimes, at that age at least, is that when I was flirting, I get mean. So like he had a very clean plate. Like, he knew exactly what he wanted from the lunch line, or whatever it's called-- cafeteria.
So he had a very neat tray. And mine was-- it was like I never would be fed again. And so I had more food than one-- like every time I went through the line, I had to eat-- I had to pile as much food as I possibly could on it. And I remember really making fun of how neat his tray was. And it was because I was kind of flirting with him.
And I pretended I knew a lot about baseball. It's hilarious you think I knew a lot about baseball, but I knew two players. And anyway, I remember it being a really fun lunch. And I was like, who the hell is this guy? He's so cute. And then we did have a few, I think, dorm room talks.
ETHAN SANDLER: Mhm.
KATHRYN HAHN: Where I think you didn't really dig me for a second, because you also had a necklace that I also kind of made fun of.
ETHAN SANDLER: Do you remember what it was?
KATHRYN HAHN: Yes.
ETHAN SANDLER: Oh.
KATHRYN HAHN: A seahorse.
ETHAN SANDLER: That he ended up getting a tattoo of on his back on one of our first dates. And I got some moon-- three little teeny moon tattoos, because I had $50, and that's what I could-- that's what I could get with that, that are the size of dimes.
But we became-- like, it was pretty instantaneous. We just kind of stuck together for a while. We just kind of like hung out together a lot until it just inevitably happened that we were dating. And I had a single dorm room. And you-- in Hinman? Maybe?
ETHAN SANDLER: Mhm.
KATHRYN HAHN: And you just all of a sudden kind of like moved in to my single dorm room. And at the foot of my bed--
ETHAN SANDLER: I mean, consensually. Is it OK to say consensual?
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, Yes. Yes. Of course. And at the foot of my bed, there was a pile of socks that smelled so bad. But that's how in love with him I was, is that I was able to let that go. And now when I think of how badly they smelled, I can't imagine.
But like, that's how in love with him I was. You would open the door and it was like, whoa. But like, we were kids. That's like what it was. And we helped each other with homework. We just like became best friends and just like in love very early on, sophomore year. For reals. This is nice to hear each other talk like this. This is really nice.
[LAUGHING]
I appreciate you, Max, for giving us this opportunity. Just so we can remember.
MAX HERTEEN: That was really sweet. That was very sweet.
KATHRYN HAHN: Thank you.
MAX HERTEEN: It was very well said. So obviously, outside of meeting one another, the most important thing that you gained from Northwestern, what were some other experiences that were formative and meaningful on campus? Are there any ones that really stick out in terms of your career trajectory where you thought, OK, this is my route?
KATHRYN HAHN: I was in a production Fefu and Her Friends, that incredible play by Maria Irene Fornés, and that was a really, really kind of changed my-- something in me shifted. And it was directed by-- oh, I'm not going to remember names anymore. My mind is a sieve.
ETHAN SANDLER: Was that Lara Dieckmann?
KATHRYN HAHN: Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Right. Exactly. And incredible, just incredible experience. It was all women. And I don't know if you know that play. It's an incredible piece where it's every-- there's scenes going on at the same-- as an audience, you walk around. And it's four scenes performed four times. And so you get to hear snippets of the scenes as you're walking around. And it's very arbitrary what you as an audience member pick up, because it depends on where you are.
And it's just very, very-- it was a very profound experience, because a delicate ensemble of women. And to hear that piece of writing, it was-- just anyway, that was, I think, one of the most profound experiences for me.
That and that sacred library on campus. I still think about going in there. And that was still where the Dewey decimal system-- I don't know if you guys still have it, but those little teeny drawers were just like, oh. Just I loved the smell, I loved the corners to study, I loved-- it just felt like I was in another country, like-- I just wanted-- everything about it as a girl from Cleveland felt like I was just in London somewhere. And it was just very, very sacred.
ETHAN SANDLER: I was lucky enough to be in the Meow show, which definitely portended a lot of just professionally what was just collaboration, and discipline, and writing, having to come up with-- having to keep coming up with new ideas and being willing to throw things out. And also met some friends that I still work with and love still today. And also just, I'm remembering I had a radio show. And then some of the audio projects, having to figure gear out and collaborate with people at weird hours, and those experiences actually stuck with me more than any other.
MAX HERTEEN: And then sort of transitioning from Northwestern to the working world. What were your first jobs? And how did you go about finding your first roles?
KATHRYN HAHN: It was an interesting decision. We were together. And we kind of-- was interesting for, I'll just speak for myself, of the New York-LA conundrum, what that was like for me post-school. And I think we both came to the same conclusion, but made it for ourselves. But it was, for me, LA felt too-- to not go there with a job, or an agent, or any sort of real connection creatively, felt not as responsible I think fiscally than going to New York. Where it felt like there was more opportunity to find a dumb job and then hook yourself onto smaller creative portals that could lead somewhere else.
It took a second. We both-- I worked in a hair salon. Ethan worked at Starbucks. We were in a studio apartment that you hit the-- open the door and hit the shower. It was like very-- but then we very we were able to get into the Williamstown Theater Festival and spent about seven summers there. And that was-- we were able to make some pretty great connections professionally there with some amazing playwrights, and directors, and other actors.
And so I think that that was-- also just being on stages, didn't even matter what kind of stages. It was like, Ethan was able to make his own work and find-- be able to put that head up. And I was like off, off, off, off, off Broadway forever. And then I went to grad school much later.
And I remember somebody being like, you're missing your ingenue years by going to grad school. And I was like, for me, those were like the least interesting parts. So I didn't care anyway. But that was the trajectory. And I'll just say this too, sorry Ethan, but a lot of actors are afraid-- I'll say this to the actors, if it doesn't happen for them right away after they graduate.
And for me, I didn't really start making money as an actor actor until I was in my 30s. So it sometimes can take a second. And it's like, what I guess I have to offer as a performer, is always one's authenticity. It's always just like-- and it took me-- it took me a second to realize that. I was like pretending to be a performer that people wanted. I was almost acting like the camera ready TV performer. And that's just like people could smell that, instead of just being myself.
And then people wanted-- that's what I think these-- it started with these amazing women that were like wanted to collaborate with me in my 30s. And a lot of it also happened after having children, which is also what the world was telling me would be the end of it. So your path can take a bazillion different avenues that you have no idea.
But if you want to do this as your career, from the belly-- I remember one of our acting teachers saying, if you in the middle of the night in the dark say I cannot do anything else with my life, that's your answer. And it will come to you in a way that you cannot possibly anticipate. And it is not fun.
There will be a lot of chapters that you're like, I can't. And I-- sorry, Ethan, I'm going off for a second. But I also know and can empathize with people that are graduating after this period of pandemic, and period of strike, and period of-- like, this is an unprecedented time for people to be graduating and wanting to be a performer, but it's also a thrilling time. Because we need stories. We need new content. AI is not going to do it for us. It's like, we need that specificity of real faces and real stories. So anyway, that's my spiel.
ETHAN SANDLER: Preach. Preach. Amen to all that.
KATHRYN HAHN: Yeah. I don't even remember what the question was.
MAX HERTEEN: Just first jobs. Just first jobs.
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh.
[LAUGHING]
ETHAN SANDLER: That was-- that was really well said. I agree with all of that.
KATHRYN HAHN: You never know. That's it. Like, Ethan too. Like, wouldn't you say the same thing? You just never know even what the job is going to be or how it's going to lead.
ETHAN SANDLER: You know, I was thinking this morning, I went into Northwestern extremely confident and extremely ambitious. I spent my childhood like, I'm going to be a guest on Johnny Carson one day. I'm going to be the next Woody Allen. Like, I just had that gumption when I was a kid. And by the time we graduated, somehow that had really shifted. And I was less interested in that pursuit.
I was more drawn to-- and it very well could be fear of failure, fear of success, whatever. But I authentically was drawn to more less mainstream work. So I was happy to go to New York also because I just was not as drawn to working in television or working in film. I was like-- and then when we did go to Williamstown, we went in a kind of like pocket that was more experimental theater or whatever. And so it's been definitely a more wandering path, the drunkard's path for me professionally. Because I didn't have the sort of true North that Kathryn certainly did of like, this is-- I am drawn towards this career of this.
So, yes, there is no-- I am certainly living proof of, if you stay true to what in your belly is your calling, is your authenticity, the practical like what the job is, what the task is, who the people are, there's no telling where it will lead you. There really-- I think, I have thought, if you gamed out Kathryn Hahn's career 100 times, it would end up somewhere near where we are right now 100 times.
Like, there is just certain truths about her. That's how I feel about her. With me, I think every time would be different. I just think I'm on a chango board, which is-- I'm really grateful for. It's been super-- I've learned so much in that way. But, yes, my first job was Starbucks.
MAX HERTEEN: It's so reassuring I think for students to hear that. They were like so panicked about, if I don't get into this school and do this thing, it's done. And every time I get to talk to somebody for this show, just hearing the kind of winding trajectory, it's like, it's reassuring, it's inspiring, and it's good. Because it's like, you don't have to get this major and just go straight through.
KATHRYN HAHN: No.
ETHAN SANDLER: May I say something quickly? When we moved to New York City and we were looking at apartments-- I don't know if I've brought this up to you recently, Kathryn , but I recently remembered that on my list of things to check out for this apartment was where nearby am I going to practice my unicycling.
KATHRYN HAHN: What?
ETHAN SANDLER: I had never been on a unicycle in my life. I didn't have money to buy a unicycle. But in my mind, I was like, as a young clown, I need to know how to ride a unicycle. If I'm going to be like Charlie Chaplin-- And I remember the apartment we ended up getting, there was a parking lot right off the bridge. And I was like, can someone come in here?
I literally thought that was-- and two, that I was going to get into NYU film school and that would be the start of my career. And not only did I never-- I've never been on a unicycle, and I certainly didn't get into NYU, and 20-- whatever it is-- 8 years later, I'm still here. It all worked out great.
KATHRYN HAHN: I think you should start. Now is the time to get on a unicycle. Now I know what to get you. No, but it's good for-- it is like-- I'm glad that it's reassuring. I always feel that-- I always want to tell students that. Because that panic is-- I mean, in any career, I imagine, but this one especially. Because it is not nine to five.
And also, it's like the metaphor I always use is a Ferris wheel. Because even if it is a particular high, or you get a job and you think like, yep, all right, now I got it, it's all good, I remember someone that had graduated saying, save your money, because it's never going to maintain that high. Like there's going to be-- in this business, you never know, if you're at the top of the Ferris wheel, it's always going to go down.
But then when it goes down, you know that inevitably you never know when it's going to start to rise again. It's not for the faint of heart, this life to be a creative. And it takes a certain, like Ethan was saying, gumption. And also it takes a certain-- it's a weird softness and hardness at the same time. You have to maintain that softness in order to listen, and receive, and be available. But then you have to have this kind of, can't take it personally, be able to walk around and be a person in the world, that not every thing is going to just like haunt you, and you can still be a parent.
And you can still be-- and that's something we're still fricking figuring out for sure. And this is advice I wish I had had when I was young, for sure. Because it's tough. But, yeah, it doesn't-- when it happens right away for somebody, I would say-- you know that phrase, compare and despair? That's also like a good one to remember, is everybody's on their own path.
So you can't compare your path to anybody else's ever. Because it's just going to cause a lot of mental anguish and suffering that will take away from your own beautiful life. And just really, not your business to think about that.
MAX HERTEEN: Excellent advice. I've never heard compare and despair, that's very true.
KATHRYN HAHN: Isn't it great? When I first heard that, I was like, yes.
MAX HERTEEN: Shifting gears a little bit. I've got a couple questions about working in the industry, and specifically working on a lot of different projects. How do you successfully switch between different genres? Working on like a sitcom, versus a comedy movie, versus an animated movie, versus something that's obviously much harder hitting?
KATHRYN HAHN: Well, at Northwestern, I remember it was like whiplash for all of us. Because it was like the Greeks for a semester, Shakespeare for a semester, Chekhov for a semester. We were like, what? Like, we could sit in any of those for a year. But it does something to your muscles to be able to shift between and have, I guess, a-- yeah, like a mus-- just have those muscles be flexible, and pliable, and agile, and open. I've been able to switch between those genres pretty easily. And people haven't pigeonholed me, I guess.
So it's been-- I feel very blessed that I've been able to go from-- I remember this one summer I did Revolutionary Road and Stepbrothers in the same summer. And that was like crazy and so fun. But I think that it takes-- like it's the same-- it has to come from the same center. I mean, I'm speaking as an actor here, I guess. But I guess a screenwriter would say the same thing.
But it has to come from the same like, what do I want, like what does this character want, what am I going for. And so any kind of comedy, it comes from the same place. And even pieces that are kind of ride the line between the both, which I love those kind of things that have the same kind of lump in your throat but you're laughing at the same time, like that comes from the same center too.
So I don't feel like-- I mean, I guess big swing comedies is like Bad Moms or whatever, but that still comes from the same truth. You know when it's outside of yourself and you're like, ugh, that was just way too big. Even though I don't mind too big.
ETHAN SANDLER: What's that story about, don't ask for that-- because you're not asking for the glass of water.
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, my gosh. Somebody told us this. This is an-- Yeah, this is an amazing piece of advice. But, yeah, that's right. That someone when on stage would always-- like these lines-- ah, I'm going to botch it. But somebody on stage was asking for-- would always get this huge laugh that would lead-- after a series of lines led up to them taking a sip of tea or something. It was like always get this huge laugh on stage over and over again. And they didn't know exactly why, but she just would always get this laugh.
And then eventually she stopped getting the laugh. And she was like, what is happening? And her co-star, who is famous, and I went to remember the name, a very well known stage actor, was like, because you're asking for the laugh, not for the tea. And I thought that was a really great thing to, piece of advice. Thank you, Ethan.
MAX HERTEEN: So, Ethan.
ETHAN SANDLER: Yeah?
MAX HERTEEN: Similar question for you. And I want to ask you a second part of that question. So first of all, what's it like to work on different productions? And secondly, what makes a great story to you and how do you evaluate your work, the work of others? How do you evaluate something that's just given to you? And how do you pick which ones to work on?
ETHAN SANDLER: I'm really grateful to finally be-- I remember working in a writer's room, and there was one guy, Rob [? Yulen, ?] who had just been through it all, had worked on every show. Some of which were legendary. He'd been in legendary rooms. He was on Roseanne. So he had the Roseanne stories. Like on tape night, when we were all freaking out , why isn't this joke working? He would just be so chill, having a cookie.
And he'd come up to my shoulder and be like, sometimes it's good to have C jokes so the A jokes really land. And then he'd walk away. And I'd be like, what? Like he just was like a sage.
And I remember thinking, I can't wait to be that. And I'm very grateful to be now in the stage of my life where when I'm in a writer's room I can bring experience. Or any conversation about a story, or about a dumb joke, or whatever, I've been around, I've been in enough kind of orientation of process that I know enough to know what matters in the conversation and what really doesn't. I no longer care what anyone thinks about me. I'm grateful to be in any conversation about stories.
I know how precious it is. I know how, to Kathryn's point, the thing you think is going to go forever is suddenly over. I've showed up to work and been told to pack my shit because the show is canceled. Like, I've been through it enough that I can be a consultant. I can go on some shows just a couple of days a week and they're happy to see me. And that is really, that's the dream. So I only say that because in terms of genre, or in terms of style, it is the same toolbox.
Some genres, like giant comedies, like Bad Moms, et cetera, yes, there are style elements to it that you want to make sure you're satisfying. But if you put different music behind certain comedic scenes that Kathryn have been in, they would play as dramas. So it's true. It's coming from the same spot. In terms of what makes a good story, I definitely am-- that's my life's work, is always moving closer to that. I don't have an easy answer for that.
I love stories myself where the ending is in the beginning and the beginning is in the ending. And I don't mean like, whoa, she was in the car the whole time. Although I love that trick anyway. But I mean, if it feels like the storyteller has been taking care of me the whole time and sets me gently at the end in the same care when they said once upon a time to me, that's all I really care about. I don't care if in the middle it's all falling apart and this isn't funny.
There's one scene in a film which shall not be named where-- from our youth-- where they're in a mall, and a lizard's loose, and people are running around. And it's supposed to be really funny, and it's not funny. And I feel the hot flop sweat of bad ideas. And like, I don't care. I'm OK being anywhere in a story, as long as we're headed where we're headed, and it had to be told that way.
For me, that's where story matters the most, is that from the beginning to the end. It necessarily had to be told. And we talk about this a lot in terms of possible jobs, et cetera, at least in my side of the street in our house, but as a writer, there's a lot of, we're adapting this video game, do you want to come in with a take on it? And it's like, you watch two hours of this video game, and it really doesn't have to be adapted know. Like, it's OK.
And why does this story-- why, especially now, especially to Kathryn's point, post pandemic, post strike, post reality, where are we? Does this story have to be told? Is this adding anything in any way? I'm just looking for that. What is the true seed in here that is worth taking the time, taking the resources, taking the humans?
Someone's going to stand there with a microphone while other people talk. Is that person's time being well spent? Is there something inside of here that's worth believing in no matter what? That's what I look for.
MAX HERTEEN: Are you telling me that there's not going to be a Wii Sports Resort movie?
ETHAN SANDLER: Yeah, really.
MAX HERTEEN: I was really hoping for that.
ETHAN SANDLER: That's a really good idea. Did we just-- did we just do it? Wait a minute.
KATHRYN HAHN: Did this really happen?
ETHAN SANDLER: I think we just got really--
KATHRYN HAHN: What's Wii Sports?
MAX HERTEEN: That was the dream, the childhood dream. When the Wii came out, and flying the little plane, and the horrible little avatar, and just go around the island playing volleyball and--
ETHAN SANDLER: Tennis? Was there tennis?
MAX HERTEEN: Wii tennis, volleyball.
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, my gosh . I am so-- have no-- I don't even have social media. Like, I have nothing.
ETHAN SANDLER: We had this for a second. Remember, Kathryn? Wii bowling. Remember Leonard was really good at the bowling for some reason?
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, he was. Do you remember when I first tried those-- what are they called? Oh, my God. They took a video of me, you guys. Because I tried-- we got Leonard, our son, a VR. Oh, what is it called? And I did a game, and I mean I could not stop-- I was like in a corner the whole time. Like, I could non-- they took a video of me because I was so bad at it.
MAX HERTEEN: They're terrifying. They're so scary and like disorienting.
KATHRYN HAHN: It's terrifying. I don't like it. I don't like any of it.
ETHAN SANDLER: Oh, that was really funny.
KATHRYN HAHN: I was like, no, thank you. And I didn't want to spend any time learning it. So I was like, bye.
ETHAN SANDLER: You were like cowered in the corner. It was like some--
KATHRYN HAHN: I was like, ah.
ETHAN SANDLER: She was like, leave me alone. You win. You win.
KATHRYN HAHN: It was one of the-- I don't know. It was like a Roman--
ETHAN SANDLER: Gladiator.
KATHRYN HAHN: A gladiator thing. So I was like, kept getting my head chopped off. I was like, this is not fun.
ETHAN SANDLER: My inner ear is too hard now. I get nauseated every time I put on a VR headset. I get literally like motion sick.
MAX HERTEEN: A couple other questions. First of all, what's the most fun role you've ever gotten to play, most fun production you've ever gotten to work on? And then, are there any that you regret turning down? Or are there any that you really wish you could have done?
ETHAN SANDLER: Do you want me to answer that first so you can think about it? I feel like--
KATHRYN HAHN: Yeah.
ETHAN SANDLER: --yours might-- I can't-- they're all amaze-- I've learned so much on each of them, I can't really-- but I will say, early on I did an animated feature you mentioned, called Meet the Robinsons with Steven Anderson, this director, and that felt like I was 14 again, just in improv class. It was the most playful. I did 1,000 voices. And he would be in the booth improvising with me. And he's such a strange and beautiful human.
And so that was-- for me, it was like, if this is the last thing I do, I'm really happy. That was really incredible. I don't think there's anything I decided to not do that I regretted deciding not to do it. I think Kathryn may have more. There are jobs I didn't get that I really wish I got, but that's fine. That's for another podcast, I think.
KATHRYN HAHN: Yeah. I mean, I'm going to say-- I would say WandaVision is like-- or Agatha is the most fun part I've ever gotten to play. It just hits all the notes. And it's a witch. And she's just fabulous. I just love her. And I-- just, yeah. So I would say she's the most delicious, just hits all the notes, feels like a culmination. And it's no small thing that it's the most recent. So maybe that has something to do with it too.
And there's of course, a couple things I've turned down that I am like, ugh. But I also have to weigh that against time with my family and my kids. And so that-- it's always-- I wouldn't have changed that for a second. And of course, yeah, there's a bazillion things I've wanted to get but haven't because someone else got them. That's the life of an actor. So, yeah. Of course. Yeah.
MAX HERTEEN: I just have to say, side note, that I'm a huge Glass Onion fan. And--
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh.
MAX HERTEEN: My mom is super persuasive. She thought it was you for like the middle hour. I'm like, oh, she's right. She's totally right. No. Not quite.
KATHRYN HAHN: Ryan is really-- I mean, he's a master at that, at setting those up. Yeah, that was really fun to make. That was an incredible ensemble. Yeah. We had a blast together. That felt like school actually. That felt like we were back at school. Because we all just had to hang together every day, every second.
So we had like a green room. We would just be in there like playing chess. And then they would just call us to set. And some of us like-- there was no room for ego. It was really fun.
MAX HERTEEN: I always ask guests this. Are there any Northwestern shout outs that you'd like to give? People, classes, places that you love, anything?
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh.
ETHAN SANDLER: So deep.
KATHRYN HAHN: I know. It's so deep. I would say-- I mean, I would say that theater building. I would say all those beautiful black box theaters. All of them. I feel-- all those Brecht posters that are still up in that hallway. I would say the-- yeah, those theaters. The ghost lamps. Or the ghosts-- Yeah, the ghost lights that are just sitting in those theaters and those dusty spaces. And just the-- just the haunted-- all the productions that had been there, and all those kids rehearsing at two o'clock in the morning, and all that magic made out of nothing in those spaces.
I just get so emotional thinking about it. Just thinking about people who want to just make out of nothing in those spaces. It's just so pure. And such a cynical world that there are still people that want to just tell stories? That whole building to me is just-- the prop shop. Everything about that building is just, have to give a shout out to. It is a sacred, sacred place.
ETHAN SANDLER: Amen. There was a video game arcade in the basement of Norris that I spent an extraordinary amount of time--
KATHRYN HAHN: I didn't know that.
ETHAN SANDLER: --playing NBA Jam, the two on two basketball game. I had no money. And I would write-- I would bounce checks to the check cashing place upstairs at Norris. I was on their list of do not take his checks, but I would somehow distract them enough to do it.
And then I'd have to get change from Jeb Brody, who's now our neighbor about eight doors down, who was my roommate at the time. And I was always late on my rent. And he's always like, why are you playing video games? And he would nevertheless give me the quarters.
This poster, I bought at Norris. There was a man who came from some Eastern European country every year-- and I say this respectfully and with real love-- you could smell that he was there when you walked into Norris, the cigarettes. And he had these beautiful posters on the floor every year. And our--
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, my God. I remember that.
ETHAN SANDLER: I saved up enough one year to buy this. And weirdly bought Kathryn --
KATHRYN HAHN: It's a Groucho Marx poster to everybody.
ETHAN SANDLER: I forgot this is audio only. Sorry. And I bought Kathryn inexplicably a Fiddler on the Roof from Poland. That looking back on, just a weird choice.
KATHRYN HAHN: It was really weird. Why did you get me that?
ETHAN SANDLER: I have no idea. Looking back, it felt really appropriate. I was like, theater.
KATHRYN HAHN: I don't think I have it anymore.
ETHAN SANDLER: No. No. That didn't-- I don't think it made it out of Evanston. And rightfully so. But this still does. This has stayed with us. Lastly, the fire escape-- wooden fire escape system on the back side of the Ridge and Davis apartment complex, somehow stood, still is standing.
We all spent so many nights on those porches and on those stairs talking and working through all the stuff that mattered life or death to us, all those things that Kathryn talking about us wanting to make. For me, that's college. And when I close my eyes, being on those stairs, on those porches, that's Northwestern.
MAX HERTEEN: Final fun question. Thinking about any past role, any movie, show you've ever worked on. Who are the best and worst role models, in terms of the characters that you've ever played? Which characters are you like--
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, good. OK. I thought you--I thought you were asking us to trash talk people. I was like, no way.
ETHAN SANDLER: Garry Marshall. Worst role model.
[LAUGHTER]
KATHRYN HAHN: OK, wait. So character role models. Hmm. Hmm.
ETHAN SANDLER: I'll go first, because it's such a smaller library I can pull from, in terms of roles I have played. These are two roles I played in Northwestern. Allen--
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, just from Northwestern? Or anywhere?
ETHAN SANDLER: I'm just doing-- I'm just doing that to make it easy for myself. I played Allen's-- the father of the boy in Equus, so a very troubled boy. I played his father, who was going to a pornographic film and bumped into his son there. And that gentleman was a small minded, small hearted, defensive fellow. That would be a terrible role model.
And I played at Northwestern later the ghost of Hamlet's father. And there was something about the love, the paternal love, my Learning something about being a father in that moment, and telling his son-- although, he was revenge obsessed. So I guess that wouldn't be-- revenge gets nobody nothing. But something about the unconditional love of a father, stepping into that for the first time as a mere 20-year-old boy, felt super profound to me.
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, wow. There's so many. Like, it's all so complicated. I mean, I would say like my worst role model would be-- because I was like-- there is-- well, I don't know, because I love everybody so much. Because I was going to say Rachel from Afternoon Delight. She took a young stripper into her-- sex worker into her home to nanny her child. But also, she was looking out for her since she was-- so I--
ETHAN SANDLER: Didn't you play Doc Oc? Isn't that a--
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, yeah. I guess Doc Oc. Yeah. Thank you. I'll say Doc Oc. Although, I don't know.
[LAUGHTER]
I feel like, I don't know. Just looking for attention. And I don't know. I don't-- I think it's hard for me because I have a fondness for everybody. But then I guess-- this is really difficult. Because it's hard for me to be outside and be like, ah. But who do I-- who would I say would be the best role model? Everybody is so complicated. Who would be the best role model? I think maybe-- gosh.
ETHAN SANDLER: I think that Bad Moms character is a hell of a role model. That was a real--
KATHRYN HAHN: Yeah. You know what? Carla.
ETHAN SANDLER: That's a great life philosophy right there.
KATHRYN HAHN: I mean, to some.
ETHAN SANDLER: To me.
KATHRYN HAHN: But you're right. She could be. You know, I played Annie in high school. And I think she's--
ETHAN SANDLER: You know what? There's a lot of optimism in there.
KATHRYN HAHN: There's a lot of-- the sun will come out tomorrow. Mhm. Yeah. I was a freshman in high school. And I wore a full on Bozo the Clown wig. Because that was our budget. But I think maybe the sun-- maybe-- maybe. I think maybe-- but like, everybody is so complicated. That's what's so great. Like, I don't know. So anyway, that's a non-answer to your question.
MAX HERTEEN: No, that's great. I mean, it's true. There are complicated roles. And, yeah, even Doc Oc. Even Doc Oc.
KATHRYN HAHN: I feel protective.
ETHAN SANDLER: I meant no disrespect to Doc Oc.
KATHRYN HAHN: We'll talk later, Ethan.
ETHAN SANDLER: Oh, I knew it.
MAX HERTEEN: First of all, this has been so much fun. You are both excellent guests. So I just appreciate you sharing stories. And this was really fun.
KATHRYN HAHN: This was really fun. ETHAN SANDLER: Great way to start a day. Thank you so much. Thank you for this.
KATHRYN HAHN: Thank you for this. Really fun.
MAX HERTEEN: You're welcome. Thank you.
ETHAN SANDLER: Nice to meet you.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
They met at Northwestern and even appeared together in the TV series Crossing Jordan. They've worked on countless memorable projects from New Girl and Meet The Robinsons to WandaVision and Private Life, just to name a few. They bring incredible insights on the world of Hollywood and successfully navigating roles and responsibilities in different genres.
We will dive into all these topics and more in this edition of Northwestern Intersections. Ethan Sandler and Kathryn Hahn, thank you so much for joining us.
KATHRYN HAHN: Thank you for having us, Max. It's so nice to be here.
ETHAN SANDLER: Good morning.
MAX HERTEEN: So let's first look back at your time at Northwestern. What brought you both to campus and what did you study?
KATHRYN HAHN: Ethan, I'll take this first one. I'm from Ohio. I'm from Cleveland. Money was tight. My parents were like, you can go to a state school. I worked really hard in high school. I went to an all girls Catholic high school and loved those nuns, but I really, really wanted-- I knew I wanted to be an actor since I was like in kindergarten. I just knew it. I just was like, I'm an actor. And it wasn't even like a choice. It just, I knew it from my inside.
And all the schools in Ohio were fantastic, but I also knew that I wanted a liberal arts education as well. So I visited schools in New York. I didn't really quite want to go just right into a conservatory program. And so my brain needed a liberal arts education, I think, at that point, at that age. And so Northwestern kind of fit all those-- it was far enough away from my beautiful family. So I could have some distance.
I'm a Midwesterner through and through and needed that weather change. And I really, I felt that it had a rigor, academic rigor. And also felt like I could dive deep into, for lack of a better word, I know it's cheese ball, but the craft of acting and get deep into the emotional core of what it is to be an actor.
So to have both of those things as an undergrad-- in undergrad, was pretty amazing. And also, had kind of a great selection of beautiful young men. And I happened to pick or find the hottest of the bunch. And we're still together to this day.
ETHAN SANDLER: Mhm. I didn't realize there was like a picking process. So I'm I--
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, yeah. That was interest-- that was a part of it.
ETHAN SANDLER: I'm glad I survived that. That was really beautifully said. I grew up outside of Seattle, but my parents were from Glencoe. They actually grew up across the street from each other. So Northwestern had always kind of loomed in our conversations about a place I could and maybe even should go. I had grandparents and an aunt that were nearby.
And I similarly grew up knowing with total certainty that I was a performer. And I had been acting since I could talk. And also wanted to study film. By the time we got to college, I was very interested in learning how to film make.
And Northwestern is and was unique in that they had such a strong theater acting program, and also a film, radio television program. So I was hoping that I could go and study film, but perform as much as I could on my own, which is what Northwestern provided in a really unique way. And I was excited to be near family and was weirdly, in a way that's funny looking back, kind of counter culturally-- like I was very comfortable being at a place that had a very firmly established culture and tone. So that I could kind of feel outside of it.
And I love that about Northwestern, that it did have such a strong Greek presence, and a sports presence, and like was very established, and still had room for a jackass like me that could be like, oh, dur, dur, dur, and smoke cigarettes at Norris and feel like I was cooly outside of it. You know what I mean? When of course--
KATHRYN HAHN: Yeah, you could raise your freak flag and feel, like, OK. There was room for everyone.
ETHAN SANDLER: Yeah. And then I met Kathryn. And then everything from there made sense.
MAX HERTEEN: So I have to ask this, because I've just been so curious. I have this amazing picture that you sent over from both of you at Norris when you were students. Was this early on in the Ethan Kathryn relationship? How did you get together on campus?
ETHAN SANDLER: I'll take this one, Kathryn.
KATHRYN HAHN: Please.
KATHRYN HAHN:
ETHAN SANDLER: That photo is, I think, from junior year. I'm guessing that because my head was shaved, and I was in a play in which I shaved my head. I think that's right. Yes, that was junior year. And--
KATHRYN HAHN: What play did you shave your head for?
ETHAN SANDLER: I think that I took Hamlet as an opportunity to shave my head. I remember I was the ghost and shaved my head bald. Kathryn was incredible as Ophelia in that production, by the way.
KATHRYN HAHN: A lot of people in there. Jason Winer was Hamlet.
ETHAN SANDLER: Yes, he very much was Hamlet. Yes. We met our first year of college. My very close and still dear friend, Daniel Milder-- Daniel Avi Epstein Miller from Seattle, Washington-- they went on a date. And Kathryn and her friend Alex came by the dormitory. And we met very briefly then. And then we had sort of mutual friends in common, I would say.
But it was the beginning of sophomore year where I remember really encountering Kathryn at the cafeteria, a very kind of bleary morning. Our mutual friend, James Oberlander, was having breakfast. I sat across from him. Kathryn came and joined the table. And in a matter of three minutes, was the funniest person I had ever encountered.
She gave me all the-- I know I've said this before, Kathryn . I'm sorry. She gave me all the material that I now see her give Uber drivers and watch them fall in love. Like, just the classic sort of, I grew up in Cleveland, Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, Al-- what was his name? Al-- Oh, damn it, the baseball player. Just--
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, Chapman? Ray Chapman?
ETHAN SANDLER: Albert Belle is who you referenced.
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
ETHAN SANDLER: I was like, she knows Albert Belle. Like, she burped. Like, all the shit that people all know completely. You know what I mean? And it worked on me. I was just like, who was that? And then it was parties mostly, right? We mostly just kind of saw each other socially.
And then, lastly, I saw her perform. I saw her perform in the famed Schenley Pavilion in a Mamet play called Edmond. And she was just so good and clearly operating on a level that the rest of us weren't as a performer. And especially at that time of my life, still today, that's what I respect. That's what drew me to her conclusively, was just watching her work was staggering.
KATHRYN HAHN: OK. Well, we heard Ethan-- I mean, that was beautiful. From what I recall, we both had hometown honeys when we first met, who were, of course, like whoa for them, it was not long. It was-- as soon as we met, it was not going to be that-- neither of them were going to last that long.
And I remember meeting him at the cafeteria. And I remember being very, very-- well, what happens with me sometimes, at that age at least, is that when I was flirting, I get mean. So like he had a very clean plate. Like, he knew exactly what he wanted from the lunch line, or whatever it's called-- cafeteria.
So he had a very neat tray. And mine was-- it was like I never would be fed again. And so I had more food than one-- like every time I went through the line, I had to eat-- I had to pile as much food as I possibly could on it. And I remember really making fun of how neat his tray was. And it was because I was kind of flirting with him.
And I pretended I knew a lot about baseball. It's hilarious you think I knew a lot about baseball, but I knew two players. And anyway, I remember it being a really fun lunch. And I was like, who the hell is this guy? He's so cute. And then we did have a few, I think, dorm room talks.
ETHAN SANDLER: Mhm.
KATHRYN HAHN: Where I think you didn't really dig me for a second, because you also had a necklace that I also kind of made fun of.
ETHAN SANDLER: Do you remember what it was?
KATHRYN HAHN: Yes.
ETHAN SANDLER: Oh.
KATHRYN HAHN: A seahorse.
ETHAN SANDLER: That he ended up getting a tattoo of on his back on one of our first dates. And I got some moon-- three little teeny moon tattoos, because I had $50, and that's what I could-- that's what I could get with that, that are the size of dimes.
But we became-- like, it was pretty instantaneous. We just kind of stuck together for a while. We just kind of like hung out together a lot until it just inevitably happened that we were dating. And I had a single dorm room. And you-- in Hinman? Maybe?
ETHAN SANDLER: Mhm.
KATHRYN HAHN: And you just all of a sudden kind of like moved in to my single dorm room. And at the foot of my bed--
ETHAN SANDLER: I mean, consensually. Is it OK to say consensual?
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, Yes. Yes. Of course. And at the foot of my bed, there was a pile of socks that smelled so bad. But that's how in love with him I was, is that I was able to let that go. And now when I think of how badly they smelled, I can't imagine.
But like, that's how in love with him I was. You would open the door and it was like, whoa. But like, we were kids. That's like what it was. And we helped each other with homework. We just like became best friends and just like in love very early on, sophomore year. For reals. This is nice to hear each other talk like this. This is really nice.
[LAUGHING]
I appreciate you, Max, for giving us this opportunity. Just so we can remember.
MAX HERTEEN: That was really sweet. That was very sweet.
KATHRYN HAHN: Thank you.
MAX HERTEEN: It was very well said. So obviously, outside of meeting one another, the most important thing that you gained from Northwestern, what were some other experiences that were formative and meaningful on campus? Are there any ones that really stick out in terms of your career trajectory where you thought, OK, this is my route?
KATHRYN HAHN: I was in a production Fefu and Her Friends, that incredible play by Maria Irene Fornés, and that was a really, really kind of changed my-- something in me shifted. And it was directed by-- oh, I'm not going to remember names anymore. My mind is a sieve.
ETHAN SANDLER: Was that Lara Dieckmann?
KATHRYN HAHN: Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Right. Exactly. And incredible, just incredible experience. It was all women. And I don't know if you know that play. It's an incredible piece where it's every-- there's scenes going on at the same-- as an audience, you walk around. And it's four scenes performed four times. And so you get to hear snippets of the scenes as you're walking around. And it's very arbitrary what you as an audience member pick up, because it depends on where you are.
And it's just very, very-- it was a very profound experience, because a delicate ensemble of women. And to hear that piece of writing, it was-- just anyway, that was, I think, one of the most profound experiences for me.
That and that sacred library on campus. I still think about going in there. And that was still where the Dewey decimal system-- I don't know if you guys still have it, but those little teeny drawers were just like, oh. Just I loved the smell, I loved the corners to study, I loved-- it just felt like I was in another country, like-- I just wanted-- everything about it as a girl from Cleveland felt like I was just in London somewhere. And it was just very, very sacred.
ETHAN SANDLER: I was lucky enough to be in the Meow show, which definitely portended a lot of just professionally what was just collaboration, and discipline, and writing, having to come up with-- having to keep coming up with new ideas and being willing to throw things out. And also met some friends that I still work with and love still today. And also just, I'm remembering I had a radio show. And then some of the audio projects, having to figure gear out and collaborate with people at weird hours, and those experiences actually stuck with me more than any other.
MAX HERTEEN: And then sort of transitioning from Northwestern to the working world. What were your first jobs? And how did you go about finding your first roles?
KATHRYN HAHN: It was an interesting decision. We were together. And we kind of-- was interesting for, I'll just speak for myself, of the New York-LA conundrum, what that was like for me post-school. And I think we both came to the same conclusion, but made it for ourselves. But it was, for me, LA felt too-- to not go there with a job, or an agent, or any sort of real connection creatively, felt not as responsible I think fiscally than going to New York. Where it felt like there was more opportunity to find a dumb job and then hook yourself onto smaller creative portals that could lead somewhere else.
It took a second. We both-- I worked in a hair salon. Ethan worked at Starbucks. We were in a studio apartment that you hit the-- open the door and hit the shower. It was like very-- but then we very we were able to get into the Williamstown Theater Festival and spent about seven summers there. And that was-- we were able to make some pretty great connections professionally there with some amazing playwrights, and directors, and other actors.
And so I think that that was-- also just being on stages, didn't even matter what kind of stages. It was like, Ethan was able to make his own work and find-- be able to put that head up. And I was like off, off, off, off, off Broadway forever. And then I went to grad school much later.
And I remember somebody being like, you're missing your ingenue years by going to grad school. And I was like, for me, those were like the least interesting parts. So I didn't care anyway. But that was the trajectory. And I'll just say this too, sorry Ethan, but a lot of actors are afraid-- I'll say this to the actors, if it doesn't happen for them right away after they graduate.
And for me, I didn't really start making money as an actor actor until I was in my 30s. So it sometimes can take a second. And it's like, what I guess I have to offer as a performer, is always one's authenticity. It's always just like-- and it took me-- it took me a second to realize that. I was like pretending to be a performer that people wanted. I was almost acting like the camera ready TV performer. And that's just like people could smell that, instead of just being myself.
And then people wanted-- that's what I think these-- it started with these amazing women that were like wanted to collaborate with me in my 30s. And a lot of it also happened after having children, which is also what the world was telling me would be the end of it. So your path can take a bazillion different avenues that you have no idea.
But if you want to do this as your career, from the belly-- I remember one of our acting teachers saying, if you in the middle of the night in the dark say I cannot do anything else with my life, that's your answer. And it will come to you in a way that you cannot possibly anticipate. And it is not fun.
There will be a lot of chapters that you're like, I can't. And I-- sorry, Ethan, I'm going off for a second. But I also know and can empathize with people that are graduating after this period of pandemic, and period of strike, and period of-- like, this is an unprecedented time for people to be graduating and wanting to be a performer, but it's also a thrilling time. Because we need stories. We need new content. AI is not going to do it for us. It's like, we need that specificity of real faces and real stories. So anyway, that's my spiel.
ETHAN SANDLER: Preach. Preach. Amen to all that.
KATHRYN HAHN: Yeah. I don't even remember what the question was.
MAX HERTEEN: Just first jobs. Just first jobs.
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh.
[LAUGHING]
ETHAN SANDLER: That was-- that was really well said. I agree with all of that.
KATHRYN HAHN: You never know. That's it. Like, Ethan too. Like, wouldn't you say the same thing? You just never know even what the job is going to be or how it's going to lead.
ETHAN SANDLER: You know, I was thinking this morning, I went into Northwestern extremely confident and extremely ambitious. I spent my childhood like, I'm going to be a guest on Johnny Carson one day. I'm going to be the next Woody Allen. Like, I just had that gumption when I was a kid. And by the time we graduated, somehow that had really shifted. And I was less interested in that pursuit.
I was more drawn to-- and it very well could be fear of failure, fear of success, whatever. But I authentically was drawn to more less mainstream work. So I was happy to go to New York also because I just was not as drawn to working in television or working in film. I was like-- and then when we did go to Williamstown, we went in a kind of like pocket that was more experimental theater or whatever. And so it's been definitely a more wandering path, the drunkard's path for me professionally. Because I didn't have the sort of true North that Kathryn certainly did of like, this is-- I am drawn towards this career of this.
So, yes, there is no-- I am certainly living proof of, if you stay true to what in your belly is your calling, is your authenticity, the practical like what the job is, what the task is, who the people are, there's no telling where it will lead you. There really-- I think, I have thought, if you gamed out Kathryn Hahn's career 100 times, it would end up somewhere near where we are right now 100 times.
Like, there is just certain truths about her. That's how I feel about her. With me, I think every time would be different. I just think I'm on a chango board, which is-- I'm really grateful for. It's been super-- I've learned so much in that way. But, yes, my first job was Starbucks.
MAX HERTEEN: It's so reassuring I think for students to hear that. They were like so panicked about, if I don't get into this school and do this thing, it's done. And every time I get to talk to somebody for this show, just hearing the kind of winding trajectory, it's like, it's reassuring, it's inspiring, and it's good. Because it's like, you don't have to get this major and just go straight through.
KATHRYN HAHN: No.
ETHAN SANDLER: May I say something quickly? When we moved to New York City and we were looking at apartments-- I don't know if I've brought this up to you recently, Kathryn , but I recently remembered that on my list of things to check out for this apartment was where nearby am I going to practice my unicycling.
KATHRYN HAHN: What?
ETHAN SANDLER: I had never been on a unicycle in my life. I didn't have money to buy a unicycle. But in my mind, I was like, as a young clown, I need to know how to ride a unicycle. If I'm going to be like Charlie Chaplin-- And I remember the apartment we ended up getting, there was a parking lot right off the bridge. And I was like, can someone come in here?
I literally thought that was-- and two, that I was going to get into NYU film school and that would be the start of my career. And not only did I never-- I've never been on a unicycle, and I certainly didn't get into NYU, and 20-- whatever it is-- 8 years later, I'm still here. It all worked out great.
KATHRYN HAHN: I think you should start. Now is the time to get on a unicycle. Now I know what to get you. No, but it's good for-- it is like-- I'm glad that it's reassuring. I always feel that-- I always want to tell students that. Because that panic is-- I mean, in any career, I imagine, but this one especially. Because it is not nine to five.
And also, it's like the metaphor I always use is a Ferris wheel. Because even if it is a particular high, or you get a job and you think like, yep, all right, now I got it, it's all good, I remember someone that had graduated saying, save your money, because it's never going to maintain that high. Like there's going to be-- in this business, you never know, if you're at the top of the Ferris wheel, it's always going to go down.
But then when it goes down, you know that inevitably you never know when it's going to start to rise again. It's not for the faint of heart, this life to be a creative. And it takes a certain, like Ethan was saying, gumption. And also it takes a certain-- it's a weird softness and hardness at the same time. You have to maintain that softness in order to listen, and receive, and be available. But then you have to have this kind of, can't take it personally, be able to walk around and be a person in the world, that not every thing is going to just like haunt you, and you can still be a parent.
And you can still be-- and that's something we're still fricking figuring out for sure. And this is advice I wish I had had when I was young, for sure. Because it's tough. But, yeah, it doesn't-- when it happens right away for somebody, I would say-- you know that phrase, compare and despair? That's also like a good one to remember, is everybody's on their own path.
So you can't compare your path to anybody else's ever. Because it's just going to cause a lot of mental anguish and suffering that will take away from your own beautiful life. And just really, not your business to think about that.
MAX HERTEEN: Excellent advice. I've never heard compare and despair, that's very true.
KATHRYN HAHN: Isn't it great? When I first heard that, I was like, yes.
MAX HERTEEN: Shifting gears a little bit. I've got a couple questions about working in the industry, and specifically working on a lot of different projects. How do you successfully switch between different genres? Working on like a sitcom, versus a comedy movie, versus an animated movie, versus something that's obviously much harder hitting?
KATHRYN HAHN: Well, at Northwestern, I remember it was like whiplash for all of us. Because it was like the Greeks for a semester, Shakespeare for a semester, Chekhov for a semester. We were like, what? Like, we could sit in any of those for a year. But it does something to your muscles to be able to shift between and have, I guess, a-- yeah, like a mus-- just have those muscles be flexible, and pliable, and agile, and open. I've been able to switch between those genres pretty easily. And people haven't pigeonholed me, I guess.
So it's been-- I feel very blessed that I've been able to go from-- I remember this one summer I did Revolutionary Road and Stepbrothers in the same summer. And that was like crazy and so fun. But I think that it takes-- like it's the same-- it has to come from the same center. I mean, I'm speaking as an actor here, I guess. But I guess a screenwriter would say the same thing.
But it has to come from the same like, what do I want, like what does this character want, what am I going for. And so any kind of comedy, it comes from the same place. And even pieces that are kind of ride the line between the both, which I love those kind of things that have the same kind of lump in your throat but you're laughing at the same time, like that comes from the same center too.
So I don't feel like-- I mean, I guess big swing comedies is like Bad Moms or whatever, but that still comes from the same truth. You know when it's outside of yourself and you're like, ugh, that was just way too big. Even though I don't mind too big.
ETHAN SANDLER: What's that story about, don't ask for that-- because you're not asking for the glass of water.
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, my gosh. Somebody told us this. This is an-- Yeah, this is an amazing piece of advice. But, yeah, that's right. That someone when on stage would always-- like these lines-- ah, I'm going to botch it. But somebody on stage was asking for-- would always get this huge laugh that would lead-- after a series of lines led up to them taking a sip of tea or something. It was like always get this huge laugh on stage over and over again. And they didn't know exactly why, but she just would always get this laugh.
And then eventually she stopped getting the laugh. And she was like, what is happening? And her co-star, who is famous, and I went to remember the name, a very well known stage actor, was like, because you're asking for the laugh, not for the tea. And I thought that was a really great thing to, piece of advice. Thank you, Ethan.
MAX HERTEEN: So, Ethan.
ETHAN SANDLER: Yeah?
MAX HERTEEN: Similar question for you. And I want to ask you a second part of that question. So first of all, what's it like to work on different productions? And secondly, what makes a great story to you and how do you evaluate your work, the work of others? How do you evaluate something that's just given to you? And how do you pick which ones to work on?
ETHAN SANDLER: I'm really grateful to finally be-- I remember working in a writer's room, and there was one guy, Rob [? Yulen, ?] who had just been through it all, had worked on every show. Some of which were legendary. He'd been in legendary rooms. He was on Roseanne. So he had the Roseanne stories. Like on tape night, when we were all freaking out , why isn't this joke working? He would just be so chill, having a cookie.
And he'd come up to my shoulder and be like, sometimes it's good to have C jokes so the A jokes really land. And then he'd walk away. And I'd be like, what? Like he just was like a sage.
And I remember thinking, I can't wait to be that. And I'm very grateful to be now in the stage of my life where when I'm in a writer's room I can bring experience. Or any conversation about a story, or about a dumb joke, or whatever, I've been around, I've been in enough kind of orientation of process that I know enough to know what matters in the conversation and what really doesn't. I no longer care what anyone thinks about me. I'm grateful to be in any conversation about stories.
I know how precious it is. I know how, to Kathryn's point, the thing you think is going to go forever is suddenly over. I've showed up to work and been told to pack my shit because the show is canceled. Like, I've been through it enough that I can be a consultant. I can go on some shows just a couple of days a week and they're happy to see me. And that is really, that's the dream. So I only say that because in terms of genre, or in terms of style, it is the same toolbox.
Some genres, like giant comedies, like Bad Moms, et cetera, yes, there are style elements to it that you want to make sure you're satisfying. But if you put different music behind certain comedic scenes that Kathryn have been in, they would play as dramas. So it's true. It's coming from the same spot. In terms of what makes a good story, I definitely am-- that's my life's work, is always moving closer to that. I don't have an easy answer for that.
I love stories myself where the ending is in the beginning and the beginning is in the ending. And I don't mean like, whoa, she was in the car the whole time. Although I love that trick anyway. But I mean, if it feels like the storyteller has been taking care of me the whole time and sets me gently at the end in the same care when they said once upon a time to me, that's all I really care about. I don't care if in the middle it's all falling apart and this isn't funny.
There's one scene in a film which shall not be named where-- from our youth-- where they're in a mall, and a lizard's loose, and people are running around. And it's supposed to be really funny, and it's not funny. And I feel the hot flop sweat of bad ideas. And like, I don't care. I'm OK being anywhere in a story, as long as we're headed where we're headed, and it had to be told that way.
For me, that's where story matters the most, is that from the beginning to the end. It necessarily had to be told. And we talk about this a lot in terms of possible jobs, et cetera, at least in my side of the street in our house, but as a writer, there's a lot of, we're adapting this video game, do you want to come in with a take on it? And it's like, you watch two hours of this video game, and it really doesn't have to be adapted know. Like, it's OK.
And why does this story-- why, especially now, especially to Kathryn's point, post pandemic, post strike, post reality, where are we? Does this story have to be told? Is this adding anything in any way? I'm just looking for that. What is the true seed in here that is worth taking the time, taking the resources, taking the humans?
Someone's going to stand there with a microphone while other people talk. Is that person's time being well spent? Is there something inside of here that's worth believing in no matter what? That's what I look for.
MAX HERTEEN: Are you telling me that there's not going to be a Wii Sports Resort movie?
ETHAN SANDLER: Yeah, really.
MAX HERTEEN: I was really hoping for that.
ETHAN SANDLER: That's a really good idea. Did we just-- did we just do it? Wait a minute.
KATHRYN HAHN: Did this really happen?
ETHAN SANDLER: I think we just got really--
KATHRYN HAHN: What's Wii Sports?
MAX HERTEEN: That was the dream, the childhood dream. When the Wii came out, and flying the little plane, and the horrible little avatar, and just go around the island playing volleyball and--
ETHAN SANDLER: Tennis? Was there tennis?
MAX HERTEEN: Wii tennis, volleyball.
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, my gosh . I am so-- have no-- I don't even have social media. Like, I have nothing.
ETHAN SANDLER: We had this for a second. Remember, Kathryn? Wii bowling. Remember Leonard was really good at the bowling for some reason?
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, he was. Do you remember when I first tried those-- what are they called? Oh, my God. They took a video of me, you guys. Because I tried-- we got Leonard, our son, a VR. Oh, what is it called? And I did a game, and I mean I could not stop-- I was like in a corner the whole time. Like, I could non-- they took a video of me because I was so bad at it.
MAX HERTEEN: They're terrifying. They're so scary and like disorienting.
KATHRYN HAHN: It's terrifying. I don't like it. I don't like any of it.
ETHAN SANDLER: Oh, that was really funny.
KATHRYN HAHN: I was like, no, thank you. And I didn't want to spend any time learning it. So I was like, bye.
ETHAN SANDLER: You were like cowered in the corner. It was like some--
KATHRYN HAHN: I was like, ah.
ETHAN SANDLER: She was like, leave me alone. You win. You win.
KATHRYN HAHN: It was one of the-- I don't know. It was like a Roman--
ETHAN SANDLER: Gladiator.
KATHRYN HAHN: A gladiator thing. So I was like, kept getting my head chopped off. I was like, this is not fun.
ETHAN SANDLER: My inner ear is too hard now. I get nauseated every time I put on a VR headset. I get literally like motion sick.
MAX HERTEEN: A couple other questions. First of all, what's the most fun role you've ever gotten to play, most fun production you've ever gotten to work on? And then, are there any that you regret turning down? Or are there any that you really wish you could have done?
ETHAN SANDLER: Do you want me to answer that first so you can think about it? I feel like--
KATHRYN HAHN: Yeah.
ETHAN SANDLER: --yours might-- I can't-- they're all amaze-- I've learned so much on each of them, I can't really-- but I will say, early on I did an animated feature you mentioned, called Meet the Robinsons with Steven Anderson, this director, and that felt like I was 14 again, just in improv class. It was the most playful. I did 1,000 voices. And he would be in the booth improvising with me. And he's such a strange and beautiful human.
And so that was-- for me, it was like, if this is the last thing I do, I'm really happy. That was really incredible. I don't think there's anything I decided to not do that I regretted deciding not to do it. I think Kathryn may have more. There are jobs I didn't get that I really wish I got, but that's fine. That's for another podcast, I think.
KATHRYN HAHN: Yeah. I mean, I'm going to say-- I would say WandaVision is like-- or Agatha is the most fun part I've ever gotten to play. It just hits all the notes. And it's a witch. And she's just fabulous. I just love her. And I-- just, yeah. So I would say she's the most delicious, just hits all the notes, feels like a culmination. And it's no small thing that it's the most recent. So maybe that has something to do with it too.
And there's of course, a couple things I've turned down that I am like, ugh. But I also have to weigh that against time with my family and my kids. And so that-- it's always-- I wouldn't have changed that for a second. And of course, yeah, there's a bazillion things I've wanted to get but haven't because someone else got them. That's the life of an actor. So, yeah. Of course. Yeah.
MAX HERTEEN: I just have to say, side note, that I'm a huge Glass Onion fan. And--
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh.
MAX HERTEEN: My mom is super persuasive. She thought it was you for like the middle hour. I'm like, oh, she's right. She's totally right. No. Not quite.
KATHRYN HAHN: Ryan is really-- I mean, he's a master at that, at setting those up. Yeah, that was really fun to make. That was an incredible ensemble. Yeah. We had a blast together. That felt like school actually. That felt like we were back at school. Because we all just had to hang together every day, every second.
So we had like a green room. We would just be in there like playing chess. And then they would just call us to set. And some of us like-- there was no room for ego. It was really fun.
MAX HERTEEN: I always ask guests this. Are there any Northwestern shout outs that you'd like to give? People, classes, places that you love, anything?
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh.
ETHAN SANDLER: So deep.
KATHRYN HAHN: I know. It's so deep. I would say-- I mean, I would say that theater building. I would say all those beautiful black box theaters. All of them. I feel-- all those Brecht posters that are still up in that hallway. I would say the-- yeah, those theaters. The ghost lamps. Or the ghosts-- Yeah, the ghost lights that are just sitting in those theaters and those dusty spaces. And just the-- just the haunted-- all the productions that had been there, and all those kids rehearsing at two o'clock in the morning, and all that magic made out of nothing in those spaces.
I just get so emotional thinking about it. Just thinking about people who want to just make out of nothing in those spaces. It's just so pure. And such a cynical world that there are still people that want to just tell stories? That whole building to me is just-- the prop shop. Everything about that building is just, have to give a shout out to. It is a sacred, sacred place.
ETHAN SANDLER: Amen. There was a video game arcade in the basement of Norris that I spent an extraordinary amount of time--
KATHRYN HAHN: I didn't know that.
ETHAN SANDLER: --playing NBA Jam, the two on two basketball game. I had no money. And I would write-- I would bounce checks to the check cashing place upstairs at Norris. I was on their list of do not take his checks, but I would somehow distract them enough to do it.
And then I'd have to get change from Jeb Brody, who's now our neighbor about eight doors down, who was my roommate at the time. And I was always late on my rent. And he's always like, why are you playing video games? And he would nevertheless give me the quarters.
This poster, I bought at Norris. There was a man who came from some Eastern European country every year-- and I say this respectfully and with real love-- you could smell that he was there when you walked into Norris, the cigarettes. And he had these beautiful posters on the floor every year. And our--
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, my God. I remember that.
ETHAN SANDLER: I saved up enough one year to buy this. And weirdly bought Kathryn --
KATHRYN HAHN: It's a Groucho Marx poster to everybody.
ETHAN SANDLER: I forgot this is audio only. Sorry. And I bought Kathryn inexplicably a Fiddler on the Roof from Poland. That looking back on, just a weird choice.
KATHRYN HAHN: It was really weird. Why did you get me that?
ETHAN SANDLER: I have no idea. Looking back, it felt really appropriate. I was like, theater.
KATHRYN HAHN: I don't think I have it anymore.
ETHAN SANDLER: No. No. That didn't-- I don't think it made it out of Evanston. And rightfully so. But this still does. This has stayed with us. Lastly, the fire escape-- wooden fire escape system on the back side of the Ridge and Davis apartment complex, somehow stood, still is standing.
We all spent so many nights on those porches and on those stairs talking and working through all the stuff that mattered life or death to us, all those things that Kathryn talking about us wanting to make. For me, that's college. And when I close my eyes, being on those stairs, on those porches, that's Northwestern.
MAX HERTEEN: Final fun question. Thinking about any past role, any movie, show you've ever worked on. Who are the best and worst role models, in terms of the characters that you've ever played? Which characters are you like--
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, good. OK. I thought you--I thought you were asking us to trash talk people. I was like, no way.
ETHAN SANDLER: Garry Marshall. Worst role model.
[LAUGHTER]
KATHRYN HAHN: OK, wait. So character role models. Hmm. Hmm.
ETHAN SANDLER: I'll go first, because it's such a smaller library I can pull from, in terms of roles I have played. These are two roles I played in Northwestern. Allen--
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, just from Northwestern? Or anywhere?
ETHAN SANDLER: I'm just doing-- I'm just doing that to make it easy for myself. I played Allen's-- the father of the boy in Equus, so a very troubled boy. I played his father, who was going to a pornographic film and bumped into his son there. And that gentleman was a small minded, small hearted, defensive fellow. That would be a terrible role model.
And I played at Northwestern later the ghost of Hamlet's father. And there was something about the love, the paternal love, my Learning something about being a father in that moment, and telling his son-- although, he was revenge obsessed. So I guess that wouldn't be-- revenge gets nobody nothing. But something about the unconditional love of a father, stepping into that for the first time as a mere 20-year-old boy, felt super profound to me.
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, wow. There's so many. Like, it's all so complicated. I mean, I would say like my worst role model would be-- because I was like-- there is-- well, I don't know, because I love everybody so much. Because I was going to say Rachel from Afternoon Delight. She took a young stripper into her-- sex worker into her home to nanny her child. But also, she was looking out for her since she was-- so I--
ETHAN SANDLER: Didn't you play Doc Oc? Isn't that a--
KATHRYN HAHN: Oh, yeah. I guess Doc Oc. Yeah. Thank you. I'll say Doc Oc. Although, I don't know.
[LAUGHTER]
I feel like, I don't know. Just looking for attention. And I don't know. I don't-- I think it's hard for me because I have a fondness for everybody. But then I guess-- this is really difficult. Because it's hard for me to be outside and be like, ah. But who do I-- who would I say would be the best role model? Everybody is so complicated. Who would be the best role model? I think maybe-- gosh.
ETHAN SANDLER: I think that Bad Moms character is a hell of a role model. That was a real--
KATHRYN HAHN: Yeah. You know what? Carla.
ETHAN SANDLER: That's a great life philosophy right there.
KATHRYN HAHN: I mean, to some.
ETHAN SANDLER: To me.
KATHRYN HAHN: But you're right. She could be. You know, I played Annie in high school. And I think she's--
ETHAN SANDLER: You know what? There's a lot of optimism in there.
KATHRYN HAHN: There's a lot of-- the sun will come out tomorrow. Mhm. Yeah. I was a freshman in high school. And I wore a full on Bozo the Clown wig. Because that was our budget. But I think maybe the sun-- maybe-- maybe. I think maybe-- but like, everybody is so complicated. That's what's so great. Like, I don't know. So anyway, that's a non-answer to your question.
MAX HERTEEN: No, that's great. I mean, it's true. There are complicated roles. And, yeah, even Doc Oc. Even Doc Oc.
KATHRYN HAHN: I feel protective.
ETHAN SANDLER: I meant no disrespect to Doc Oc.
KATHRYN HAHN: We'll talk later, Ethan.
ETHAN SANDLER: Oh, I knew it.
MAX HERTEEN: First of all, this has been so much fun. You are both excellent guests. So I just appreciate you sharing stories. And this was really fun.
KATHRYN HAHN: This was really fun. ETHAN SANDLER: Great way to start a day. Thank you so much. Thank you for this.
KATHRYN HAHN: Thank you for this. Really fun.
MAX HERTEEN: You're welcome. Thank you.
ETHAN SANDLER: Nice to meet you.
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